Series 4 Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast
[00:00:00.84] NARRATOR: Welcome to Corwin's Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast
with host, Peter DeWitt. This podcast is from education leaders for education
leaders. Every week, Peter and our guests get together to share ideas, put
research into practice, and ensure every student is learning not by chance, but
by design.
[00:00:19.67] PETER DEWITT: I'm going to make introduction alone for the
Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast because my guests are going to be editor Tanya
Ghans and marketing guru from Corwin, Morgan Fox. And the reason why I wanted
to be able to focus Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast on this is because we
often get contacted by people who want to write a book, they don't know where
to start writing a book when it comes to education, in general.
[00:00:47.03] And I thought it would be a neat experience to do the Leaders
Coaching Leaders podcast with a twist and interview Morgan and Tanya and ask
them about what they think about and what they look for when they're looking at
books and how to market a book and all of those kind of things. So I really
hope you enjoy this conversation.
[00:01:06.02] I need to say, at the very beginning, Tanya is my editor.
Morgan is the marketing person that I work with. And I could not ever do what I
do without the two of them. So I hope you enjoy the conversation.
[00:01:19.91] [MUSIC PLAYING]
[00:01:23.08] Tanya and Morgan, welcome to the Leaders Coaching Leaders
podcast. I almost feel like I should say, the Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast
with a twist because--
[00:01:30.95] TANYA GHANS: With a twist.
[00:01:32.20] PETER DEWITT: --we all work within the Corwin organization. So
welcome.
[00:01:37.03] TANYA GHANS: Thank you.
[00:01:37.99] MORGAN FOX: Thank you. It's nice to-- it's interesting to be
on this side of--
[00:01:40.36] TANYA GHANS: [INAUDIBLE]
[00:01:40.66] MORGAN FOX: --the podcast, on the side of the mic.
[00:01:44.26] PETER DEWITT: So it is good to see you because actually, when
we were all together at the Visible Learning Conference, Morgan was literally
at the doorway of one of my breakouts. And we were having this really pleasant
conversation. And I walked away going, gosh, that voice sounds familiar. I
turned around and like, oh my God, it's Morgan.
[00:02:01.90] MORGAN FOX: [LAUGHS] And I was just talking to you like, oh,
it's Peter. Yes, it's a great to see you in person.
[00:02:08.44] PETER DEWITT: We see each other through Zoom so often. So I'm
like-- what I wanted to really be able to talk to you about is, I-- and I'm
sure you both have the same circumstances. I get asked all the time about
writing books, or I'll have people send me manuscripts and say, Peter, can you
look over the manuscript? Do you think you can send this into your editor,
Tanya, at Corwin?
[00:02:33.55] And then I also feel like after somebody publishes a book,
they sometimes get really disappointed because I think they think they're
supposed to be the next JK Rowling, where they wrote a book, so therefore,
they're going to sell a billion copies of their book. And suddenly, they're
going to be rich and famous, and they're going to be a billionaire. And that is
not necessarily how it happens.
[00:02:58.42] And I feel like I wanted to be able to do this podcast with
the two of you because Morgan, you're on the marketing end. And you do a great
deal of work there. And then Tanya, you and I, obviously, partner a lot on
editing. But you're the senior editor.
[00:03:14.05] And I wanted to talk a little bit about just publishing in the
educational world in the first place, the marketing side of things, and also
maybe about why should people, if they're truly interested in writing, what's
the why. Why are they doing it in the first place? Does that make sense what I
say that, Tanya?
[00:03:36.07] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, it totally does. So do you want to start,
Morgan, or I can or what's-- so do you want us to start, Peter, by just talking
about what you just asked, like why--
[00:03:46.87] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:03:49.63] TANYA GHANS: Well, I think there's the both end thing. There
is a place where I think you may-- there's something really attractive about
having your name in a book. And it can really be a dream of a lifetime to get
your name written in stone that way, if you will. But I think the real driver
has to be-- and also converges with the people who are most successful in the
field is that there's a real passion for the content that you want to produce.
[00:04:22.24] There is something that you know, that you think will make the
lives of teachers and ultimately, children better. And you almost feel an
obligation to share that content with the world because a book is such a labor
of love. And it does take so much work to do it that just for practical
reasons, you need to be driven by this larger mission of almost extending the
reason why you got into the field of education already because we're talking to
people who are in the work.
[00:04:52.63] So that's my quick answer to why this field and what you
really need to be thinking about. And I think in your heart and in your head,
if you want to take that next step, are you committed to many, many, many, many
hours of unpacking, what you're thinking about in a way-- and I'm sorry to use
the word unpacking. I feel like I just got told it's used too much. But it
works for so many things, that you're willing to really tease apart the pieces
of it to make it something that's digestible for others.
[00:05:27.74] PETER DEWITT: What about on your side, Morgan? When it comes
to-- when you're looking at marketing and all of those kind of things, what do
you start thinking about when you look at the marketing behind the book? What's
the author-- how about this? What is the author's responsibility where
marketing is concerned?
[00:05:49.64] MORGAN FOX: There's no magic bullet. But I think that
something that a lot of people probably think when they write a book is that
their work is done when the book is written and gets sent to production. And
honestly, a lot of work starts when the book gets sent to production. That's
when-- I mean, I look at manuscripts, and Tanya and I talk about possible
audiences and how this could fit in the market before the book even starts
getting written.
[00:06:19.46] But there's so much-- we view it as a partnership. And
honestly, people buy books because of the author more than because Corwin
publishes it. So we view it as a partnership between me and Tanya and you, as
the author. So that means in some ways, it's very, very helpful for you to have
some marketing experience or a knowledge or willing to learn.
[00:06:44.51] There's tons of free resources online about blog posts, about
how to market yourself in self-promotion because it is weird game to try and
sell/promote yourself. I can sit here and talk all day long about, here's what
you should do to promote your book. But at the end of the day, I'm not
promoting myself. And so I do recognize that's a very different feeling than me
sitting here telling you, here's some strategies, and here's what we're going
to do to help market your book.
[00:07:09.80] So there's-- but at the end of the day, too, I see it as
amplifying what the author's already doing. So the more that I have to amplify,
the more I can help boost your name in the market, the more I can help increase
those book sales. And there's lots of different ways we can try and do that.
But it really does come back to the author.
[00:07:29.51] And in some ways, starting that even before you start writing
your book, if you're thinking, like, hey, I have something that's really
helping other people. How do I share that? That's just the basis of marketing
in and of itself. What do I have? And then who would be interested in this? And
then getting that in front of their eyes and where they would be looking for
it.
[00:07:52.60] PETER DEWITT: I love that idea, the amplifying your voice
because you're right. I mean, as an author-- and I've certainly gone through a
trajectory of hating myself for how much I'm on Twitter or what I'm posting on
Instagram and social media. It's really hard because you do have to do that
kind of promotion so people know you're out there because if you're not doing
it, who's doing it?
[00:08:13.51] But at the same token, it's like, oh my gosh, nobody's going
to want to follow me if all I'm talking about is the implementation all the
time or something like that, I'm going to be very boring at parties, if that's the
case. But I remember reading a post by Adam Grant, who I follow on Instagram.
And he was really-- he wrote many books. But Think Again is probably my
favorite.
[00:08:34.90] And one of the things that he talks about-- and I'm certainly
not going to say it as eloquently as he does is the idea that you're not-- you
have to be careful that you're not promoting yourself, that you're promoting
the ideas. You're promoting the ideas that you support. And I have to admit, as
soon as I saw that post on his, I like, that just made me feel like aw. Now I
get it because there is an inner struggle with how often do you post and those
kind of things.
[00:09:04.94] I think one of the things that I would like to know from the
two of you is, how do you know it's a good idea? I will remember-- for people
that don't know, so back in 2008, I wrote a blog for local NBC affiliate. And
it was the first blog I had ever written. And it got picked up by ASCD
SmartBrief. And I didn't even know because-- I mean, I just didn't know.
[00:09:30.59] And that day, I started getting emails, these random emails
from people saying, hey, I really love the blog you wrote. And I was thinking,
how does that person in California know about a blog I wrote for NBC in Philly
and in Albany? And one was Arnis Burvikos, who was my first editor at Corwin.
And I remember I-- he said, if you ever want to consider writing a book, let's
talk. So I did. I was like, oh my gosh, this is the greatest thing ever.
[00:10:01.03] And I sent him the worst ideas. I hurried up, put things
together, send it to him. And he's like, yeah, that's not going to work. That's
not going to work. And I thought, I failed. I just did-- that was the worst
thing I could have done. I ruined my one chance. It was awful. I really felt
awful.
[00:10:16.99] And then I joined a doctoral program. And when I got into the
doctoral program, I started writing articles based on the research that I was
doing. And people would publish it. And then I would send that to Arnis. I
stayed on his radar. I'm like, remember me? I always joke with Arnis that I
stalked him in a way. And then it wasn't until after I finished my doctoral
work that once again, he said, so what do you want to write about? And I said,
I really don't know.
[00:10:42.61] And he asked, what was your doctoral dissertation on? And I
said, safeguarding LGBT students. And he said, I think you just found your
first book with Corwin. And it was literally-- and I-- that's another word
that's overused, Tanya, literally. It was the first book on safeguarding LGBT
students that Corwin ever published.
[00:11:01.21] How do you know what's a good idea in both of your roles
because I get contacted by people. And I know you both do about I have this
idea that I want to write about? To them, it might be the most unique idea in
the world. But to you, it might be the fifth time you saw that this week. How
do you know what's a good idea in both of your roles? Tanya?
[00:11:26.17] TANYA GHANS: I mean, sometimes, unfortunately, you might not
know until you put it out in the world with an editor. And you get that
feedback, like-- you know. So it can be tricky. Here's one thing, I think you
spoke to the first piece, which is it's just-- it's resonating with people
around you.
[00:11:40.54] Every time you talk about it or mention it, you know what it
looks like. People get this thing in their eyes. You're saying something they
didn't have words for, or they are-- there's this need that they've always
wished someone would speak to. So if you find that sharing it in big or small
and larger circles, just people are saying, yes. That might be a seed you want
to nourish a bit.
[00:12:03.65] I also think, interestingly, on the other side of it, there
are ideas that no one's thinking about yet. But you somehow are so clear that
there's something there. And it won't leave you alone. It keeps nagging you.
And say, you're well-versed in the field. So that helps.
[00:12:23.69] You really need to know your landscape and your territory
because that's part of how you know if you're saying something you're not and
saying something you have a new idea that could be relevant. And if you're
leading people you respect, and you're steeped in the content around this idea
that you have, and you keep having this, but no one's saying this, why isn't
anybody talking about it? Look, I think there's something here to this.
[00:12:43.76] I think that's also worth paying attention to and nurturing
because there's no reward without risk. And so, the thing that I-- a little
piece, which I think is true about so much in life, is that to some degree,
some of your ideas will start to feel really like, I have evidence for this. I
know like, I have data. I have lots of people.
[00:13:04.94] And other pieces will be something in your gut that you can't
completely name. But if you want to do it, you should do it. And you should put
it out in the world and see what happens. So those would be two things I would
think of as a potential author that you should look to to think about like,
well, is this something I should really try to get down on paper and share with
the world?
[00:13:26.93] PETER DEWITT: I like-- I definitely like that. What about you,
Morgan?
[00:13:31.31] MORGAN FOX: I don't have a lot to add beyond what Tanya said.
But thinking about it from a marketing perspective of trying to like, what is a
good idea and verifying what other people are saying and thinking, it's just
another reason to me to get on social media or to start writing blog posts and
getting those ideas out there. Like you said, you wrote something, and then
people were like, oh, that's amazing. Come write a book, or this helped me so
much.
[00:13:56.37] So if you're within those networks and those groups and
communities of people having those conversations, it's helping you refine your
ideas and your thoughts and how you're communicating that. But it's also
building up your brand as a person in that place as well, which when you do go
to write your book, it's great to have as a foundation.
[00:14:18.11] TANYA GHANS: Yeah--
[00:14:18.41] PETER DEWITT: I think that's one of the-- oh, yeah, go ahead,
Tanya.
[00:14:20.36] TANYA GHANS: Just because thinking about another point that
you made. And I wanted to underscore, people who do-- who are deep in work--
and I might even be speaking for you a little bit, Peter, in terms of
marketing, the tension of I want to-- it is about marketing the idea not
yourself.
[00:14:34.52] But there's also this space where the marketing can feel
inauthentic and finding a way for you to redefine what authenticity is, so you
don't feel like you're being like a car salesman, if you will-- sorry if
anybody has some car salesmen in there, and their families.
[00:14:49.16] But the idea I'm trying to promote here is that you're just
doing something transactional, which in today's world, getting the word out,
this is how you do it, and so being able to adapt into how you spread good
ideas. So don't try to work through the feelings of inauthenticity, if that's
what you feel like when you're getting out there and promoting yourself. It can
be tricky. But it doesn't have to be labeled that way.
[00:15:15.71] PETER DEWITT: No, I think that's such a good point. I've had a
luxury because I write the blog for Education Week. So it's been a space where I've
been able to practice out ideas. And sometimes I find that what works is a
really good blog.
[00:15:29.15] When I go to the prospectus, which we know from a writer's
standpoint, Corwin, every publisher, though, has a prospectus that you have to
go through. What's the potential outline for people that don't know? What's a
potential outline and what are the competing books on this topic?
[00:15:48.86] And then also, write a couple of chapters, I have found that
when I've written a blog that does really, really well, and then I start to
write a book about it, and I start to get into the first chapter like, eeh, I
really like this as much as-- I think this is a really good blog, not
necessarily a good book.
[00:16:05.45] And that's been an interesting thing. But also, I think that
from the blogging standpoint, after I've published a book, I have to be very
careful in my role as a blogger for Education Week that I'm not only promoting
my books.
[00:16:20.99] And nobody's going to want to read that, anyway, if they go
to-- finding common ground blog. And it's all about Peter Dewitt's books.
That's why I have guest authors and all that stuff. And I think that one of the
things that-- one way that has helped me grow as a writer and also somebody
that promotes is that I'm not writing about the book. I'm writing about some
maybe specific ideas from the book, for example, the implementation.
[00:16:46.85] That book comes out, I don't want to write 10 different blogs
on the implementation. But it is important to be able to write about what does
a partial reduction look like or what does it mean to abandon these practices
that we're already doing. And I think from a promotional standpoint, especially
when Adam Grant wrote that about the ideas, I think that's a part of it, too.
It's about looking at those ideas and seeing what ones are going to resonate.
[00:17:13.28] I think my follow-up question, probably the last question for
us is, what do people do when they get turned down? I was very honest. I've had
at least five ideas turned down that they were like, nah, that's not going to--
that's not going to work really well. And at first, because I hadn't written
any books, it was devastating. I'm not going to lie. I had this huge
opportunity, ASCD picked up the blog.
[00:17:39.11] TANYA GHANS: And I thought, wow, I'm going to write a book.
This is like a dream. And then it gets turned down. And I was devastated
because I had never really-- I didn't think about that. I thought, this is just
going to work. What do you do-- what should people think about doing after they
have an idea that actually gets turned down? Does that mean it's the end of
writing for them, or what should they think about next?
[00:18:08.88] I mean, you should never let anyone stop your dream, if
that's-- your dream. So I mean, with so many things, the grit and perseverance
or whichever term you'd like to use for that, I think if you really believe in
it, keep at it. I know as an editor, it's true. I don't give two paragraph-long
rejections just for time's sake. But I try to provide a kernel of what could it
maybe made a different outcome with this.
[00:18:32.95] So if you get some feedback, maybe it's just not clear enough,
which is-- it just can be a big one. I do-- I don't understand enough about
what you're trying to do. Maybe even share it with a trusted friend and try to
get more feedback and see how you can refine your work.
[00:18:47.31] What is true is that no matter how good you are as an author,
there are-- I would love to see the time that it happens where your first draft
is anywhere near your file.
[00:18:59.01] [LAUGHS]
[00:19:00.15] PETER DEWITT: I know that doesn't happen for me.
[00:19:02.13] TANYA GHANS: So even if you've written it three or four times,
and you think you've really done a lot with it, it's not uncommon. This is a
process that can take years of refinement. So I think if you believe in it,
shop it around. Sometimes it's not always the right house. It's not the best
place for the content. And I try to say that, too, as an editor. Maybe there's
a place where it might fit better.
[00:19:24.34] So if you really believe in it, and it's not leaving you
alone, look for ways to refine it. Get some real feedback on what is and isn't
working. And I think the way that you do that is you keep putting it out in the
world. And the friction that you get will help to shape it and just be patient.
Give yourself some time and know that it's a common occurrence.
[00:19:46.23] We all know the stories of people who were rejected 50 times
before they were accepted. That really is the norm. It can be. So the people
who have this immediate, I sent a book in, and I got it. And that's a very--
that's just-- that's a rare bird.
[00:20:02.07] And you should know, likely, whatever you did to rise to the
place in your field where you feel like you have information that you should
share, you feel like it warrants that, it's going to be a similar-ish journey
if you're moving into this new medium, so patience and persistence.
[00:20:20.82] MORGAN FOX: I think the more and more I think about books in
that refinement process, I compare it to entrepreneurship in some ways in my
head because there's so many parallels with that. Somebody told me recently
that when startups start with their product or their service, they're often 30%
off from what they thought the market needed or what they thought it wanted.
[00:20:43.98] So when you start with your book, this is what I want to write
about. If it gets rejected, it could only be like 30% off. Maybe it just needs
to be framed in a different way. Maybe it needs to be packaged in a different
way. Maybe it needs to be just for a different audience or the same idea
applied to a different problem or applied to a very specific problem.
[00:21:02.89] So thinking about it in terms of like, this is a process. And
I'm going to refine my product just like a business would refine my product
could help with some of the disappointment like on the other end.
[00:21:14.94] PETER DEWITT: I find that staying in my own lane is something
that I'm always thinking about because some-- when I first started to write, I
would have the big umbrella. This is for everybody. Everybody can learn from
this book. And then no, this is going to be about school leaders, or this is
something about instructional code to the leaders and really start to hone in
on.
[00:21:34.95] I think the perspective is as much as I am not, probably. I
practice patience. But the perspective, this is always hard for me because
sometimes I will look at it and say, no, I don't need to do that. I can just
jump into the idea. But honestly, the prospectus is the area to-- that helped
we really start to filter out. And I look at the book as a learning experience.
And the two of you know that. When I'm starting to write a book, I always look
at what am I going to learn through this topic.
[00:22:05.16] Collective leader efficacy, it took me a year and a half to
write the implementation because Tanya read one of my blogs. And she was a new
editor and sent me an email and said, this needs to be your next book now.
That, both-- all of the books that I focus on are areas that I actually want to
learn about. It's actually some learning at the same time. So going in with the
learner's mindset is certainly important.
[00:22:33.24] Before we leave, I mean, the two of you are huge partners for
me. And I couldn't-- I certainly couldn't do what I do without the two of you.
You make me better. What is something that I didn't ask that you would want
people who are interested in writing a book-- an educational book, in
particular, but what would you want them to know before we sign off for this
podcast?
[00:23:00.50] TANYA GHANS: I would say, especially for the education field,
give, give, give to your audience. That your work is meant to give people some
kind of roadmap or blueprint to do something better. It can be very easy to end
up having a book because you're living in it, and you're inside of it. And you
really are trying to impart why it's so important to spend too much time into,
though, trying to convince people why this is good and maybe what might happen
if you don't do it.
[00:23:29.54] But what people really want is tell me how, tell me how. Adult
audiences really want-- they want to be persuaded. But they get persuaded
pretty early in. And then they want to know, how do I do this work on the
ground? So give, give, give to the reader as you're writing.
[00:23:44.90] PETER DEWITT: Love that.
[00:23:51.12] MORGAN FOX: So much of what I do has to do with the type of
content and the type of person that I'm working with. And I feel really, really
blessed because all of the authors on the leadership list are amazing people to
work with and very passionate people, experts in their field. So if you're
thinking about writing a book, think about the type of person you want to be
and who-- if you're writing to leaders or whoever your audience is, are you
trustworthy to that audience? And why are they going to listen to you?
[00:24:21.06] And then back to what Tanya said, the how, how are they going
to do that because maybe they've had that idea before, too, but they don't know
how to get there. So be the bridge for them.
[00:24:32.70] PETER DEWITT: I also-- I would add to that. I never needed 10
yeses. I just-- I needed one yes. And taking that feedback or that rejection
and turning it into, what do I need to do differently, or how can I grow from
this to go deeper the next time I try this. I think it's just really important
as well. Well, Morgan and Tanya--
[00:24:56.07] TANYA GHANS: It almost always makes the work better. It makes
the work better.
[00:24:59.43] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, it does. Well, thank you both for-- I know
this has been a twist for the Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast. But I just
really was interested in-- like I said we get contacted so often. And we do
partner on the leadership list. I'm a consulting editor with all of you. And I
think we get contacted so often or we get book ideas sent to us.
[00:25:22.59] But also, I think there are people that are just really
interested in writing the book, but they're afraid of rejection, or they're
afraid of what's that first step I'm supposed to be taking and those kind of
things. So I just really wanted to turn the Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast
into how about we say, writers and editors and marketing, coaching more than
others.
[00:25:44.46] TANYA GHANS: Coaching perspective authors.
[00:25:48.09] PETER DEWITT: Thank you both for being on.
[00:25:49.81] TANYA GHANS: Thanks for having me.
[00:25:50.51] MORGAN FOX: Thank you.