Making Black Success Predictable

Series 5 Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast

[00:00:00.81] VOICEOVER: Welcome to Corwin's Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast with host Peter DeWitt. This podcast is from Education Leaders for Education Leaders. Every week, Peter and our guests get together to share ideas, put research into practice, and ensure every student is learning not by chance but by design.

[00:00:19.65] TANYA GHANS: Today's session is another great one. We have a trio of authors on. Trudy Arriaga, she's the first female superintendent of the Ventura Unified School District. She focuses on cultural proficiency, equity, superintendency, and diverse learners.

[00:00:37.80] Dr. Stacie Stanley, she is a superintendent of Edina Public Schools in Minnesota. She's a senior training associate at the Center for Culturally Proficient Educational Practice. Her research is on the impact of intercultural development on K-6 administrative leadership. And last but not least, we have Debbie Lindsey. Am I saying that correctly, Peter?

[00:01:03.96] PETER DEWITT: Delores.

[00:01:04.64] TANYA GHANS: Delores. I knew it was Delores Lindsey. She is at California State University. She's a retired assistant of educational leadership. She is the co-founder with her husband of the Center for Culturally Proficient Educational Practice.

[00:01:19.76] And these three women, it's not their first time working on a book. But their most recent one is actually a journal called My Leading While Female Journey. It's a reflective journal, a follow-up to their book of a very similar title where they share lots of stories and give readers prompts for just how to think through this work.

[00:01:42.39] And so the larger topic today is really thinking about what it is and what many women experience when they're leading in education. And so I had a thought while I was listening to this that it's actually not that long ago that men and women are together in the workplace. And so it actually makes a lot of sense that we need some time and some help and support to figure this out.

[00:02:09.76] And so they make it so crystal clear that this book is not just for women, even if it is primarily for women, understandably, probably obviously. But that it's also something that everybody who is in leadership, including men, definitely want to read. This is not anything about male bashing or toxic masculinity at all. It, I think, is just about-- this is a relatively new phenomena.

[00:02:35.52] And we all just need help understanding each other better in the workforce. And we also do have some barriers and obstacles to tackle with this. And I think their book in this conversation really starts to just to get at some of these important ideas around women in the workplace.

[00:02:56.00] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. And the conversation to me was really interesting because-- I mean, let's face it. I'm a man who is interviewing three women. And I wanted, as they were talking-- and I want people to know this before they listen to the podcast too because they're going to look and say, oh, Leading While Female, this is not for me. I'm a guy-- not true.

[00:03:18.15] Actually, the conversation is equally as important for men as it is for women. And that's why when they were talking about stereotypes, I wanted to be able to ask that question about, I wonder if on the male side, men feel like they have to fit into a certain stereotype as well. Because if they-- are they going to be seen as overly emotional and all that stuff? So there's this interesting space in between that I think the conversation is a really good one.

[00:03:46.27] And the sad part for me is that we don't engage in these conversations enough. Because we see the title, we think, oh, it's only for women when that's really not the case. It is equally as important for everybody to pay attention. Because during the interview-- and people-- listeners will hear. Stacie Stanley was talking about microaggressions. And it was-- those are the kind of things.

[00:04:14.97] When she gave that-- and it was ten seconds that she was talking about it. Those are the perspectives and the real life examples of what happened that we do need to hear because then we think and have to look at, oh my gosh, do I actually engage in microaggressions?

[00:04:34.73] TANYA GHANS: Yeah.

[00:04:35.18] PETER DEWITT: Because I think everybody is at risk of engaging in microaggressions. And to me, it's not a blame thing. And that's what I loved about the conversation. It wasn't like this blame thing. It was actually about building awareness and understanding and what to do about it. And that's what I want people to be able to listen to when it comes to the podcast.

[00:04:57.29] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, this was a-- I think you've said all of that perfectly. So I think all of our listeners, male and female alike, will get much out of this. And hopefully, we get some feedback from you when this is over. And we really look forward to hearing how everyone responds. But it's a really great conversation. So listeners, enjoy.

[00:05:17.78] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:05:19.61] PETER DEWITT: So Trudy Arriaga, Stacie Stanley, and Delores Lindsey, welcome to the Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast.

[00:05:27.76] STACIE STANLEY: It's great to be here. Thank you.

[00:05:29.20] DELORES LINDSEY: Thank you. Thank you.

[00:05:30.88] PETER DEWITT: It's good to have all of you on. I know that at least two of you are in the same place which is cold right now Minnesota. And then, of course, Delores, you're in California. You were rubbing it in a little bit before we officially started. So that's always good when we can have that good camaraderie.

[00:05:47.20] DELORES LINDSEY: Well, thankfully, we're all having good weather today wherever we are.

[00:05:51.19] PETER DEWITT: That's right. So let's talk. A couple of years ago, you had the book Cultural Proficiency, Leading While Female came out. And now, you've got some new companion journals that are coming out which is My Leading While Female Reflective Companion Journal.

[00:06:08.02] So Trudy, can I go to you first, please, actually? And talk a little bit about-- I know that they're obviously very related, between the book that came out a couple of years ago and the companion journal. Talk to us a little bit about where this idea came from.

[00:06:25.33] TRUDY ARRIAGA: Sure. I think the book, Leading While Female, has inspired women across the nation to come together in book clubs, sister circles, leadership conferences. And we consistently receive feedback from women about really wanting to write their own stories, wanting to share their own experiences, wanting something that would really allow them to be reflective as women who lead.

[00:06:59.72] And so it was our opportunity to come together again and to provide an actual journal that is the companion journal to the Leading While Female book, so that, again, we could share stories. But there is also opportunity within the journal for women to journal and for women to record their own experiences and dig deep into their own journeys.

[00:07:30.24] PETER DEWITT: So Stacie, talk to me a little bit about-- because you wrote one of the reflective companion journals. Talk to me a little bit about your specific journal. What did you focus on and write about?

[00:07:42.45] STACIE STANLEY: There are a few of them. And really honing in and focusing for me on the intersectionality, really focusing on that role that women of color-- that additional role that women of color hold as they move into roles within a C-suite and really understanding that, how it impacts their relationships with community members, how it impacts their relationships with their staff.

[00:08:10.00] And so there's just an extra added step for women of color when you are leading in the C-suite that you really have to understand in order to be successful. And so some of the reflections are based on those experiences that I hear from women all around the country.

[00:08:32.53] PETER DEWITT: Can you talk a little bit more about that? So you said that there is the role takes on some new meaning and with the relationships. Can you give some examples of what you mean by that?

[00:08:44.38] STACIE STANLEY: Yeah, absolutely. So right or wrong, there can be times where imposter syndrome comes in for women of color. It is rare that you walk into a room where there are many women of color in that room and especially in Minnesota or in the Midwestern states. And so really, being able to have that sister circle to really understand how to counteract that imposter syndrome, to believe in yourself.

[00:09:15.65] More than that, to know how to respond when microaggression is coming your way and people are asking you if you are truly doing the work or maybe they may turn to your white male counterpart who is on your leadership team and presume that they're leading the work, right?

[00:09:34.67] And so how to be mindful of that and how to navigate that? But navigate that in a very strategic way so that you can continue to be successful and building the community partnerships that are so required for women of color who are in leadership in the educational field.

[00:09:59.61] PETER DEWITT: Thank you. I know those examples are very important. And I'd like to actually talk more about those in a little while too. Delores, what has been your perspective through during this work? Where have you focused on specifically?

[00:10:16.93] DELORES LINDSEY: Peter, I've had the privilege to be the gatherer. We gather it at our home here in Southern California in Fallbrook around our kitchen table. And we start with our own stories. And that's how the journal did come to be our next project. We finished the book. And stories kept coming. Our own stories developed even further.

[00:10:44.83] And we decided, well, let's give everybody an opportunity to journal, as Trudy said. And what I tried to do is just gather those stories and try to figure out a format. There's lots of journals, opportunities for women and men to journal, to reflect. But to just say, OK, go ye therefore and reflect, just most folks don't have time. But when you offer folks a structure, a series of prompts, then we find that people will take the time.

[00:11:26.79] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. But still with that, I mean, I think that the gathering is where so much-- you can learn so much, right? Because when you're talking, it makes me think of-- I think of empathy interviews. One of the things that you're seeing as a trend these days is it's not just interviewing people in an exit interview before they leave the school district to say, why are you leaving?

[00:11:49.56] It's an empathy interview around, where do you-- why are you staying? Or what does collaboration look like? So I would venture to guess that within that gathering, there were a lot of powerful things that you learn. Could you, Delores, talk a little bit about when you were doing this work, and you were gathering these stories? What is it-- is there anything that you learned that surprised you? Or did it fit in with your knowledge base already?

[00:12:15.54] DELORES LINDSEY: Women in general when you look across the country at women in leadership roles, women outnumber men as far as teacher roles are concerned. But something happens when you narrow up that ladder. And there are fewer and fewer women in those leadership roles. So as they talked about, as we interviewed them, it's the second time around.

[00:12:41.99] Some of the same women said, it's still the same story. Things are not changing the way we want them to change. So some of the-- I was trying to think your question about surprises. I think we were surprised that there were not many surprises. It was very consistent with the literature, very consistent with what we were finding, and that women want to tell their stories. They want to share their stories. And that the barriers are consistent.

[00:13:13.71] There's that built-in system of privilege and entitlement that's been there forever. And there's the unawareness of the need to adapt. People say we're doing just fine. We have a great leadership team. These men have been doing a great job for many years.

[00:13:36.84] And they don't see what they don't see that they don't have to see because this current system has served them well. And so there's a natural resistance to change. And so we're encouraging folks to look for a support system and look for mentors that was consistent in what we found the lessons learned.

[00:14:00.58] And I think Trudy and Stacie both can speak to their own mentors and how many times we've found in the stories that the mentors were actually men for women in the educational field. And we stumbled upon the importance of sponsors which was fairly new in education field. It's quite well known in the corporate world but fairly new in educational world. So we did stumble upon that.

[00:14:35.53] PETER DEWITT: Trudy, so I was fortunate enough that when I was a school principal, my assistant-- it was a small district. My assistant superintendent was female. My superintendent was female. But I often saw that there were certain board members, there were certain teachers, there were certain leaders that treated them differently because they were female.

[00:14:57.93] So could you talk a little bit about the obstacles that women face when they're in a leadership role? And then, Stacie, I'd like to go to you too and be able to ask you the same question. But Trudy, what kind of obstacles do women face in their role as a leader based on the fact that they are female?

[00:15:19.62] TRUDY ARRIAGA: I'd probably begin that with just the statement of, don't confuse our greatest strengths for a weakness. That as women-- and now, I'll speak for myself. As a woman who led a fairly large school district, first female superintendent in the history of the school district, I found that I was consistently having to go back to that premise of don't confuse my greatest strength as a weakness.

[00:15:53.88] I care deeply about people. I lose sleep over people. I wear my heart on my sleeve. I cry easily. And all of those, I often found myself having to justify how I was leading. And so there were most definitely barriers and misconceptions as a woman. Does she really have business acumen? Who's going to take care of her children?

[00:16:27.33] Gosh, how does her husband feel about her being gone five nights a week? I go home to my own husband and ask, does anybody ask you about how I feel about you being gone five nights a week? Of course not. Anybody ask you who's going to take care of our children? So just some of those stereotypes, misconceptions that, as women, we're constantly having to prove ourselves.

[00:16:51.48] So I found myself wanting to be visible at everything for fear that someone was wondering who was taking care of my children. I'll let Stacie certainly add to that. But those were not just the stories we heard, but those were our own stories.

[00:17:10.90] PETER DEWITT: Stacie, what about you? I see you shaking your head a lot.

[00:17:15.52] STACIE STANLEY: Yeah. I mean, those are-- I'm shaking my head because those are the stories that we heard from so many women, but those are our stories as well. Trudy and Delores, as an administrator, and I have talked about that so many times-- and especially through that lens of the business acumen.

[00:17:33.64] And so too often, women in education, we are tapped on the shoulder to head down the educational side, right? To head down the instructional side which is fabulous because every leader has to be a great instructional leader. We've come there and arrived there.

[00:17:55.90] Now, but for years, the individuals that were chosen to move into the superintendency, they were moving through the operational side. And so to be able to challenge that stereotype, to be able to show the acumen around the business side, to be able to show that you can go out for a referendum-- and the additional skill sets that oftentimes people call soft skills, I see them as hard skills.

[00:18:26.00] That being able to connect with families, being able to connect with kids, being able to make the reality of the shortage of the funding make sense to the community, those are the items that really help to get that referendum passed, right? And being able to help people understand how that additional skill set that I say not soft skills but that additional skill set can benefit the organization.

[00:18:53.64] Being able to think strategically through the lens if you are of a mother. When-- I always say I'm a grandmother now. And when I am bringing on programming, when I am advocating for additional options for my students, I'm thinking through the lens as a previous mother as a grandmother. I don't know if that necessarily happens. I won't say that-- for sure, it doesn't happen with our peer, male colleagues. But I haven't really heard my male colleagues talk about that so much-- seeing things through that lens.

[00:19:30.33] In addition to that, it is just being able to get in the pipeline, right? Being able to overcome those pitfalls. How many times are we applying for positions? Even the systems that are put in place, that first interview by that organization who is the headhunter, right? And so you have to get through that first interview to even move forward to get into the pipeline to interview for the superintendency.

[00:20:00.96] And oftentimes, that-- Delores talked about sponsors. Oftentimes, that is because, behind the scenes, our male colleagues have individuals who are sponsoring them that they know. They are part of that club that people are aware of them.

[00:20:19.63] And so, really, being able to be strategic and build our own networks so that we are sponsoring one another and then tapping into our male mentors who are there so that they can sponsor us as well so that the headhunters are well aware of us ahead of time. And they are coming after us just like they're going after our male colleagues.

[00:20:41.67] PETER DEWITT: So Stacie, you just said-- you were talking earlier about being a grandmother. And you said you've never heard your male peers actually talk about that. And Trudy, you were saying some things about the stereotype. Actually, both of you said stereotype. Do you think there are-- do you think men play into a stereotype? And they don't feel like they can talk about being a-- not just a dad or a grandpa.

[00:21:08.52] Do you think that they feel like they're supposed to actually play to some stereotype? You were saying earlier, Trudy, about your greatest strength is not a weakness. Is it possible that there are men that actually feel like they have to hide a strength like being emotional or something like that because they're afraid that they're going to be perceived in a different way? Does that ever come out during conversations?

[00:21:33.69] TRUDY ARRIAGA: I mean, I would think absolutely. I'm sure that there are male leaders who feel that way. I think one of the things that we say very consistently is our work is never about male bashing.

[00:21:49.16] PETER DEWITT: Oh, yeah.

[00:21:49.92] TRUDY ARRIAGA: It's always about recognizing our male allies and recognizing that our male allies also have unique strengths that we don't have. But we want to make sure that we're walking alongside our male allies, not behind them. But alongside and, with all due respect, periodically, in front of them because of our unique contributions as women.

[00:22:17.52] But I would assume that there are men who feel like to let their hearts be vulnerable or share a tear or share a familial story is not how they want to be perceived. But I won't speak on behalf of men, but I certainly can speak on behalf of myself and the women who we have encountered along the way that most definitely that is a barrier for women to have to overcome.

[00:22:47.64] And we don't ever want to get stuck on the barriers. We're not interested in just talking about barriers. We talk about overcoming those barriers and the support factors within each and every one of us but also within our organizations that support women.

[00:23:07.06] PETER DEWITT: I want to be able to-- I actually want to go there next because I think sometimes there's a perception that if there's a book called Leading While Female, that it's only a book for females. And actually, hearing all three of you talk, I think that there is as much men can learn from your book as women. So because you just said that, Trudy-- and I'm going to move. And Delores, I'll start with you. When we talk about those contributions, what can all readers, whether they're men or women, learn from Leading While Female?

[00:23:41.90] DELORES LINDSEY: Well, thank you for that question because, as Trudy said, he uses the example. This is Randy Lindsey. He uses the example of, it's easy, he says, to support women when women are in the room-- with men and women in the room, leaders. He said, the challenge comes when there are no women in the room.

[00:24:03.14] And there are men in the executive leaders in the room, and you support women as leadership as leaders moving up the organization. So what we tried to do in this book, dedicating a chapter to the book-- in the book-- excuse my hoarseness this morning. But dedicating a chapter for our allies and advocates of this work, being men, and really talking about their role and being able to see what some men do not see.

[00:24:41.63] And that is the strength that women bring to organizations. It's not just about, let's promote women. It's about promoting the people who have the strength. And women have strengths in areas that would benefit their organization. So whereas this has been overlooked before, then now it's time to look at the strengths that women bring. So you mentioned empathy before, the intuitive nature that some women bring, these are-- and the skills that women bring.

[00:25:18.31] The part that Stacie mentioned earlier, a story about an assistant superintendent that I met. And she said, I have applied and applied. And the position that's advertised for is superintendent with instructional background. And she said, every time I don't get the job, a male gets the job whose background is in business.

[00:25:47.74] And I asked the question, do you have strength in that area? And she started listing all the experiences that she'd had in the business background. And then, I asked, in what ways do you emphasize that on your resume? And she said, well, I don't bring much attention to that because the job describes instructional strength. And I said, it doesn't seem to matter to the men who are advertising their strength.

[00:26:18.02] And so from that point on, she started advertising then, balancing her resume with her strengths in the operational side, the business side, as well as the instructional side. So we need men on the interview panels, HR folks, that are willing to open up their view of what women bring both on, as Stacie said, on the operational side as well as the instructional side but actually educating men. And that's what part of this book is about.

[00:26:55.34] And s I was giving a-- early on in this work, the first book had just come out, I was giving a workshop. And women were coming into the room. And a young man peeped his head in the door and said, can men come in? And I said, you certainly can because we can't do this work without you. So he went out and got two more men to come in with him. So it's not only that women go in pairs or threes. Men come that way too. So we certainly invite men to join us on this journey.

[00:27:31.20] PETER DEWITT: Thank you. Stacie, what about you? When you wrote this reflective journal, what are you hoping that all people can learn? I mean, I think Delores' example is taking an obstacle and turning it into a way to get over that obstacle which is, let's make sure we have a balance between the instructional side and the business side. What is it when people are reading your specific pieces within the reflective journal, what are you hoping everybody will learn from you?

[00:28:00.08] STACIE STANLEY: That they each have a story. Oftentimes, I think the women that we've spoken to struggle to even know that they have a story, wonder if their story is valid, or sometimes they're questioning their story. And the hope and dream is that the stories that we were able to bring forth and share of women who were willing to give those stories to us so that we can honor them, that they will serve as a stepping stone into the stories of the lives of anyone who reads those books.

[00:28:43.37] There's a song-- I was thinking about as Delores was talking. "I Can See Clearly Now," right? And I think that what we've heard from many men is after they read through, whether it's the first book or some of them-- my greatest cheerleader is a former supervisor of mine. And he went right out and purchased the companion journal. And the more that they read and they listen to the stories of women, they're seeing more clearly.

[00:29:16.95] They're seeing just the little tweaks that they need to do when they're posting the position or the little tweaks that they need when they're asking questions or how they organize that interview panel and process, the little tweaks that they can do in presenting at school board association meetings to help build the capacity of school board members who are actually involved in hiring the leaders.

[00:29:43.68] So the stories within the book, whether it's my stories or the stories that were contributed by Trudy and Delores, they're designed to be a seed to actually seed the ideas and the thinking of other individuals to let them know that they too have a story. And their story is as valid as someone who is an author of a book. Their story is as valid of someone who has lived in the role of a superintendent or someone who is desiring to move into the pathways and the pipelines of moving into that role.

[00:30:23.79] PETER DEWITT: Let me-- I have one final question. Trudy, I'm going to go to you with this. Because I keep thinking, as you are talking, you are providing such an important focus for people. And it really is all people. It's not just women. I think women need to understand that they're not alone. I certainly know that. But I also think on the other side, I just keep thinking that there are men that do not dive into these conversations.

[00:30:52.09] And I think the worst conversations are the ones we never have. I have a luxury. I have a podcast. I do a web show with Education Week so I find myself talking about a lot of topics that sometimes get banned in states. So I'm not-- I feel like the conversation for me, especially about topics where I don't necessarily have maybe a lot of expertise, are the greatest ones. Because even though I might say the wrong thing, at least, I'm going to learn through it and learn what to do differently.

[00:31:22.93] And so why do you think is there a space to keep pushing the conversation so men are equally as aware and want to ask women about how they feel? I don't know if that's a really good question. And I feel-- because I feel like the more the three of you are talking, and the more I think of this as being a book that-- the book and the companion journals as pieces that all people should be reading. How do we get more people to engage in these conversations so they can understand the perspectives of the people that we're working with.

[00:32:05.58] Because in my philosophy, if we're going to get the most out of the people we work with, if we're going to get-- if we're going to create a positive and safe environment where we can truly engage in really good deep conversations so we can maximize the gifts of everybody around the table, how do you-- what are some ways right now?

[00:32:26.60] You were talking about sister circles and things like that. What are some ways that you are making sure that this is a conversation that keeps moving forward that all people can actually engage in? Is that a good question? I'm sorry if it's a little bit of a long one.

[00:32:42.12] TRUDY ARRIAGA: I think it's a great question. And I think there just so many opportunities for all people to get involved. And whether that is making the conscious decision as leaders to have discussions in the faculty lounge, to have discussions in the executive cabinet, to promote conferences, to promote other-- I'm thinking we have a conference coming up that the three of us are looking very forward to in April.

[00:33:14.94] And I was glancing at the list of registrations thus far. And I saw what I could identify as one male who has signed up. So gosh, it's an opportunity for not just male leaders but female leaders to say, I want to bring a team. And I want to bring a team that is inclusive of our male colleagues to promote book clubs for all staff, for all faculty, and, most importantly, I think for leaders to model.

[00:33:51.75] To model the support factors that we have found within organizations, to model intentionality on promoting women outside of traditional career paths, from modeling mentoring programs and support groups that are inclusive of women mentoring women rather than the traditional men mentoring women, modeling just structures and procedures within our organizations and recognizing that when we take away job shares, we hurt women.

[00:34:29.79] When we hold meetings that go after the 5 o'clock stop time and, all of a sudden, it's 5:45, for the most part, we're impacting women who are running to pick up children and make dinner. And we found that, throughout our research, women are still doing very traditional roles. And we say unapologetically. Unapologetically, I was a superintendent and put my children to bed and read stories and made sure homework was done. That was a choice that we made-- or that I made within our family.

[00:35:06.39] And so I think there's so much that men can do to be a part of the advancement. And we couldn't help but notice in our research, Peter, that, as we all know, women are the teachers of this nation. We are the teachers of this nation. I think our research, the last one, I remember seeing was 78%. But yet, there were 26, 27% of us that are superintendents.

[00:35:35.07] PETER DEWITT: Yeah.

[00:35:35.43] TRUDY ARRIAGA: It was a long way to go in a profession where we dominate the profession. And so opportunities for us to really be reminded that women don't lack competence, but there is a lack of confidence that we found. And so it's up to all of us to promote women not only in regards to their competency but also making sure that we promote women who are confident moving forward.

[00:36:08.08] PETER DEWITT: Well, I think the series-- and I'll call it a series. Leading While Female and then My Leading While Female Reflective Companion Journal are certainly some great ways to actually build that confidence and develop the confidence. So Trudy Arriaga, Stacie Stanley, and Delores Lindsey, thank you for being on the Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast.

[00:36:28.29] - Thank you.

[00:36:29.34] - Thank you for having us.

[00:36:30.84] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:36:34.54] PETER DEWITT: All right, Tanya, for me-- and I said it during the podcast too. I have a luxury, right? Because-- maybe it's not a luxury. I want to be a part of the conversation, but I have a great opportunity both with the podcast or A Seat at the Table with Education Week where, with my editor, both you and Elizabeth at Education Week, we talk about what topics do we really want to focus on? And some of them push my comfort zone.

[00:37:04.45] TANYA GHANS: Yeah.

[00:37:05.02] PETER DEWITT: Because I'm walking in going, OK. And I don't want to ask the safe questions. I want to ask the real ones. And it's been a learning journey over doing this podcast, especially this season, but also doing the Ed Week show to be able to get into questions and conversations about race and gender and these kind of topics that too many people shy away from because they're afraid of saying the wrong thing.

[00:37:34.67] And I enjoyed this conversation because there were so many thoughts that came to my mind during the conversation. That whether it was Delores or Stacie or Trudy, they were all talking about things.

[00:37:47.49] And I said at the beginning in the intro that with Stacie, when she was talking about microaggressions, I want people to be able to walk away and say, do I engage in microaggressions? And I don't even know that I do that. Because sometimes, they have a bias, and they don't even know they have a bias.

[00:38:03.95] And other times, I want them to be able to look and say, you know what? I need to listen to more conversations about women in leadership. Because even though I'm a guy, it's really not just about women in leadership. It's about us all. And when they were talking about things like sister circles and what they're doing with the journal, what I think is powerful about that is that-- and Trudy said it at the end.

[00:38:28.31] Women-- she said women lack confidence. There are women that lack confidence. And I think what's important about what they're doing and what they're engaging in is they're building those structures to help boost the confidence and develop the confidence of women so they also understand that they're not alone. But in the same frame, they're also teaching men how to support women in different ways too. And I just think those are the kind of conversations that there's no downside to.

[00:38:59.92] TANYA GHANS: Yeah. I mean, you don't get to root causes with safe questions. So it's good that you're asking them for sure. A lot resonated with what they said being a woman myself. And one of the things that they said, this strong need to prove yourself. Where you've got this full time job, and you're also worrying. Will people think I'm not a good mom? And so not only am I working 8, 10 hours a day, I feel the need to show up in these other spaces as well even though men and women are all dealing with the same time frame and clock last remember.

[00:39:39.48] PETER DEWITT: Yeah.

[00:39:39.93] TANYA GHANS: Right? I mean, women joke and talk about having that second shift. And while we're proud, I think-- I mean, one of the authors spoke about that. It's a deliberate choice. It needs to be recognized and talked about and discussed. And people-- it can't be assumed that everybody really understands what it's like to be balancing all of that. So I thought that is an indication of how much eye-opening stuff probably lives inside of the work that they do.

[00:40:10.74] And that, like you said, most people don't have malice in their hearts, right? They're just living their own experiences and can't know everything. And so how do we bring people into the fold? We bring them in with exposure and dialogue.

[00:40:25.71] And like you've always said, make it a safe place for people to talk about what they don't know, talk about what's scary for them, talk about what they're unsure about, and just get really comfortable saying, I didn't know that. Hey, I probably do that too. Hey, now, I know. And I wouldn't have known if you didn't bring it up.

[00:40:42.87] So hear here, on the more of that, the better especially if you can do it in a way which really is about being solution-oriented, which these women seem completely to get which is fantastic.

[00:40:58.75] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. It was really-- I'm loving this season because it's just-- all of the conversations, yes, they're under the umbrella of education and leadership. But they are all so individually nuanced.

[00:41:12.70] TANYA GHANS: Yeah.

[00:41:14.05] PETER DEWITT: It's like every conversation is just a really interesting one. I'm almost feeling overwhelmed with what my brain has been taking in over the season.

[00:41:27.67] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, very true. OK, this is exciting. This is a great-- this is just great. And so, yes, hear here to more of that. I'm looking forward to our next conversation. And I really, really enjoyed this one.

[00:41:40.87] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. If everybody else enjoyed this one, it's always important to make sure that you're following the show so you know when the podcast is coming out. And giving us feedback and rating us on how much you liked the show and the podcast and those kind of things, we want to definitely hear from you. But we also want to thank you for listening to Leaders Coaching Leaders.

[00:42:04.54] [MUSIC PLAYING]