A Smarter Way to Discuss the Reading Wars

Series 3 Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast

[00:00:00.82] WOMAN: Welcome to Corwin's Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast with host Peter Dewitt. This podcast is from education leaders for education leaders. Every week, Peter and our guests get together to share ideas, put research into practice, and ensure every student is learning, not by chance but by design.

[00:00:19.55] TANYA GHANS: Hi, Peter.

[00:00:20.35] PETER DEWITT: Hello.

[00:00:21.71] TANYA GHANS: Nice to see you again on Leaders Coaching Leaders. I'm super excited about this particular episode, but I'll let you kick it off.

[00:00:30.47] PETER DEWITT: I got to tell you, Kareem Weaver-- first of all, hi, Tanya.

[00:00:35.82] TANYA GHANS: [INAUDIBLE]

[00:00:38.48] PETER DEWITT: It's good to see you. It's always good to see you.

[00:00:40.97] TANYA GHANS: I love the shirt.

[00:00:42.47] PETER DEWITT: Oh, thank you.

[00:00:43.37] TANYA GHANS: The color, very spring.

[00:00:44.93] PETER DEWITT: That's for people who-- you need to check us out on YouTube, not just the podcast. You need to check us out on YouTube so you can see my new shirt. You brought this guest. And it's Kareem Weaver. I feel like I say this a lot, but honestly, this is a fantastic conversation around literacy that I think people are not only going to enjoy, but I think they're going to have a lot of Amen moments.

[00:01:16.68] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, indeed. I mean, Frederick Douglass has this saying. And I'm certainly paraphrasing. But basically, even back then, that literacy and reading was the civil rights issue of the time. Unfortunately, it remains that way. And I think in this particular guest, we have somebody who's really taken an approach that's full of heart, but very, very practical and focused on making movement in the right direction and building coalitions with people.

[00:01:50.00] And I'm excited for what listeners are going to hear from him. It's not going to be what you may have heard or thought you know about the reading wars. In fact, he dispels that or he breaks it down in a way where he really adds a layer of nuance and a new level of understanding to what this is with reading and maybe how we can get to a place where the pendulum doesn't seem to be swinging all the time on this topic.

[00:02:16.14] PETER DEWITT: Yes, and for those of you listening who don't know Kareem Weaver, you will. After you're done--

[00:02:23.58] TANYA GHANS: You will.

[00:02:23.96] PETER DEWITT: After you're done, you're going to follow on Twitter. You're going to-- but Kareem is a member of the Oakland NAACP education committee. He's a leader of Full and Complete Reading is A Universal Mandate, which is also known as FULCRUM. And that's one of the first questions that I asked him. And I was glad that I did. But he's also a staff for the National Council on Teacher Quality. And I'm just really excited for people to listen to this podcast.

[00:02:50.39] TANYA GHANS: Me too. All right, enjoy the listen everyone.

[00:02:56.27] PETER DEWITT: All right, Kareem Weaver, so nice to have you. Thank you for being a guest on the Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast.

[00:03:03.26] KAREEM WEAVER: My pleasure. I appreciate it, Peter, thank you. Glad to be here.

[00:03:06.22] PETER DEWITT: I love your background-- teacher, school leader, and you're doing a lot of work with FULCRUM. And one of the things that I read in your bio is that FULCRUM is really about full and complete reading. And what we're trying to do this season for the Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast is really develop a common language and a common understanding. So it's something I've been clarifying quite a bit. Can you talk to us a little bit about what is Full and Complete Reading?

[00:03:38.47] KAREEM WEAVER: No, no. No one's ever asked me that question. I'm so glad you did.

[00:03:41.89] PETER DEWITT: Oh, good.

[00:03:43.00] KAREEM WEAVER: Because we take the cliffsnotes versions of things when we talk about literacy, and reading, et cetera, but Full and Complete Reading is a little different-- that means the ability not just-- it has to include your foundational skills, your ability to decode things, and be able to sound them out.

[00:04:02.65] But it also includes your ability to understand what you're reading, and to discover, and to analyze, and to be able to use reading to aid yourself in thinking critically. It also includes things like financial literacy and other forms of literacy. Reading isn't just a utilitarian thing.

[00:04:26.68] It's the coin of the realm so to speak. In order to access society today, you really have to be literate. So when we talk about full and complete reading, we're talking about everything, everything related to reading and literacy. Kids have to have that today in order to thrive.

[00:04:42.77] PETER DEWITT: I like that a lot. I'm actually very glad that I asked you a question you haven't been asked before. So that's surely exciting for me.

[00:04:49.71] KAREEM WEAVER: We're off to a good start.

[00:04:51.72] PETER DEWITT: So I'm actually a former first grade teacher. So I taught for-- I taught first grade for 7 out of 11 years and then I was an elementary school principal. So reading, literacy in general is just a huge passion area for me. So I feel I have a load of questions for you because one of the things-- you've been somewhat involved, at least, in podcasts with the science of reading.

[00:05:15.87] And one of the things that I've seen lately is-- there is just a New York Times article that came out on May 22 about Lucy Calkins and teachers college. Why is there such a hot debate, it seems right now, with the science of reading and literacy in general?

[00:05:34.26] KAREEM WEAVER: Well, there's a few reasons. First of all, there's debate over-- so there's a debate about reading. And then there's the debate about control and power. And those are two separate things, but they both appear the same. And literacy itself and reading itself, this isn't a really controversial thing.

[00:05:56.93] There isn't much debate about how kids learn to read. We actually know how kids learn to read. Research is very clear. There's a consensus in the research about it. There are five core pillars and then a couple of things that you also have to do. So in addition to your phonemic awareness, and phonics, and vocabulary, influencing, comprehension, you also need oral language development. You also need writing because that covers the gamut. And so that's pretty much indisputable.

[00:06:29.52] What has been at issue is how much of what. And what we've been saying at FULCRUM and also with the NAACP, where I've been doing a lot of work as well, is that you need to have things done systematically, explicitly, and directly, as opposed to inferentially.

[00:06:47.93] We actually want to step by step teach kids how to read. It's not the guessing-- and I think some of the challenges that we face have come as a result of us not being willing and open to accept the fact that we didn't know some things or we struggled with some things.

[00:07:06.75] So there's no need to rationalize things. There's no need to blame anyone. There's no need to be defensive. Sometimes we just have to step back and say, oh, what we were doing wasn't working. We're going to actually apply the science now and take things step by step and move forward.

[00:07:19.59] So in terms of reading itself, it's really a non issue. There are no reading wars, in that sense. The American Federation of Teachers came out with a five point platform 20 years ago about the elements of an effective reading program. It's still on their website today. You can go look it up.

[00:07:38.74] Well, most districts haven't done those five things. Most of them haven't done two of those things. And so when people do those things, we found, overwhelmingly, the kids can read. And they can be successful. And we're talking about all demographic groups. Then you have the power conversation and the control.

[00:07:58.07] So I saw that New York Times article. I read it. And I'm glad they came out with that piece because we really have to have a reckoning, why did we go down this rabbit hole? Why did we do things that weren't aligned with the research consensus? I mean, you're talking about 20 years in. These things have been known for about-- not just since the National Reading Panel, but even after that.

[00:08:22.59] The research has been pretty overwhelming. And you have the meta analysis done by John Hattie, which covers the different components of reading that are important or it actually covers the effect sizes of what impacts learning, and those components are there.

[00:08:37.10] But why did we go away from that? Why? And I think it's not about the reading science. And it's not about the kids. That says more about adults, about our tribalistic nature, about our university structures and programs. And it's really something that we have to unpack, the why we went down that hole. And whose voices did we listen to?

[00:09:05.38] So for example, I mean, Lucy Calkins, she taught in her 20s. In that article, she said she taught in her 20s. And then she immediately began to be a professor and some of the things. I taught in my 20s. And I think I did all right, but I wasn't nearly as good a teacher in my 20s as I was in my 30s.

[00:09:25.09] PETER DEWITT: Exactly.

[00:09:25.90] KAREEM WEAVER: I had a long way to go. I don't know. And meanwhile, we have ignored people who have, for years, gotten great results for kids for decades and developed programs that we could use. We just ignored them. And I don't know whether it's personality or it's culture, but something happened. And to have a reckoning about why we got there. And the power dynamics of that create it.

[00:09:57.06] When it comes to literacy conversation, a lot of it is about reading, but a lot of it is about power, and identity, and who's in charge of making these decisions. And we've got to get to the point where it's not just we're being reactive because someone is or isn't a particular demographic. We actually have to sit in the conversation on, what's best for kids and what's working.

[00:10:16.94] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, and I think, I mean, that's such an excellent point. And for people that don't know what we're talking about, the New York Times article's actually in the fight over how to teach reading. This guru makes a major retreat. And it was about Lucy Calkins.

[00:10:31.04] It was a very interesting article. And one of the reasons why I was so interested is not just because of the my past as a first grade teacher, and teaching kids how to read, and also the principal, but also the idea that I actually work with all the K-2 literacy coaches in New York City. And they were the ones who-- they've been sharing a lot in the science of reading and those kind of things too.

[00:10:52.94] So I like a lot of the points that you're bringing up. And you talked about university structures. And I guess, that's one of the areas that I wanted to go with you as well because when we're talking about literacy in general, it's not easy to teach kids how to read. It takes work. like you said, it takes a systematic way to go about it.

[00:11:12.11] And I'm working with a lot of schools lately that have emergency certified teachers. And we know that we've got, in many ways, a teacher shortage. And I came from a high poverty city school background. So there was-- back then, we were talking about teacher shortage because it was hard to get-- we were trying to get people in.

[00:11:30.47] But what we find is that teachers are-- especially emergency certified and that's not to pick on them, it's a reality, but also just teachers in general, they don't necessarily have a literacy background. And then all of a sudden, they're put in the position of teaching kindergarten, first grade, second grade.

[00:11:47.81] And they may not have been properly trained at the university level. So what kind of things can they do? And how can principals help? Because I love that part of your focus is, hello, this is about school leadership as well. So what can we do?

[00:12:05.53] KAREEM WEAVER: So there's a lot. I used to be the executive director of New Leaders' in the Western Region, which is a leadership development program that trained principals and classroom teachers to be leaders in their buildings. And one of the things I realized is that the universities that had done their certification programs with, et cetera, really didn't focus on the how to.

[00:12:31.78] And when you're talking about literacy, it's not just the technical stuff. It's not just a rubric of things and you check the box that as you go down the things. It's also the adaptive stuff. It's the people's stuff because we have to overcome our own biases in terms of how we learn to read. And I think that's one of the biggest things that we probably need to get out there.

[00:12:51.50] It's not the natural default setting for most educators to do things the way the majority of kids need them done. We're the survivors of the system. And it worked for us, but it turns out that over 60% of kids need things done in a structured systematic way.

[00:13:10.46] And so for school leaders, there has to be professional development. And I would encourage everyone to lean into this, what I call the age of discovery. You have to allow people the opportunity to discover things. Yes, you can tell them and you can have moral clarity. And you can bring in your partners, et cetera, but you have to allow people the opportunity to discover.

[00:13:32.83] So for example, I would highly recommend, if I'm a school principal, or a chief academic officer, or network superintendent, et cetera, take something like Ed Trust's podcast on extraordinary districts. And these are districts around the country that are getting great results for kids around literacy. And they have a whole pack. I think they're on season 5 right now.

[00:13:56.11] And have your staff or your team, take episodes and do a root cause analysis for each one. Then bring them together and look for commonalities. What do they do? What do they have in common? What curriculum do they use? What approaches do they-- what pedagogical shifts do they make? Et cetera. And just allow them the opportunity to discover.

[00:14:16.95] I've had superintendents, and I'm thinking of two in particular, tell me in essence, Kareem, there's a lot of talk about literacy and what's possible for kids. I've never seen it. I don't know of a district that's actually doing well, not an urban district, not even a suburban district that's actually getting kids to read at a high level. So I don't really know what to do.

[00:14:41.20] And these are the superintendents telling me this. And one said, if you have examples, can you please send them to me. So we have to have an age of curiosity, first of all, because there are some people. That's all you need to do. You just need to show them that there are models of success. And they'll go after it.

[00:15:00.20] Others, you have to be willing to make the institutional case. So I think there's different cases that you make. So for example, whether it be a board member, or a principal, or whomever, and just say, look, you do know we're spending four times as much on special ed as we are in general ed.

[00:15:18.41] If we were able to do these things in general ed, you could reduce your cost by X amount. And that would increase the health of the-- there are some people that you have to make the institutional case. You have to get parents involved. Most parents have no idea what goes on in the school building. They just know if the kid is happy or the kid is not happy.

[00:15:39.08] And one of the pernicious things about the way we're teaching reading across the country is that it's a silent killer, I like to call it. It creeps up on you. In first grade, a kid may be struggling to read, but you figure, you know what? They're first grade. They're young. They have time. And oftentimes, that's what parents are told.

[00:15:56.81] By the time that challenge grows and kids are really struggling, the problems have become so calcified, so hardened that other things have now cropped up. There's behavior issues that come up. They're responding to that, whether it's their tuning out, or being overstimulated in some areas, or being defensive.

[00:16:19.08] So we've got to have screeners that we can identify early reading challenges or risk of challenges, whether it be dyslexia or any other reading challenge so that we can have a-- I mean, we shouldn't be doing wait to fail. We can identify these challenges on the front end and help kids out. So it's a combination of things. It's making sure that universities are actually providing tangible concrete opportunities for their candidates to teach kids how to read.

[00:16:46.53] And I'll give you one last example. I was in a university meeting with a dean and the faculty. And we had a robust conversation. And I think one assumption that people make is that universities are all on the same page. They are not. And as I sat there, the dean was stunned as the methods of one teacher debated with the methods to teacher, as the faculty was split down the middle on how to teach reading.

[00:17:11.96] And finally, finally, I turned to one of the faculty members and I said, if we have a first grader and one of your candidates is their teacher are we confident they're going to be able to teach them how to read? That's really the bottom line. And the person said, well, if this is right, and that's right, and the principal does this, and the curriculum is this. And they give out 15 caveats.

[00:17:36.00] And I said, that that scenario doesn't exist in most schools, most schools are just trying to hang on for dear life. So what we have to do we have to make sure that teaching candidates have opportunities for practical experience to teach kids how to read.

[00:17:53.38] There are programs that they can join. There there are tutoring programs they could get involved in. Universities could partner with nonprofits. I know there's one called Ignite that does it in Oregon, where the candidates in Eastern Oregon University actually serve as tutors of this program, teaching young people how to read. So when they come into a school, they have that experience.

[00:18:14.47] How wonderful is that? And how much more likely is it that teacher will enjoy their work because they're going to be successful in their work and then they're more likely to stay in the profession? So we can do a lot of things, Peter, at the university level, at the school district level, supporting parents, and also supporting our teachers.

[00:18:35.56] And I say, the biggest thing is making sure that there's curriculum in place that actually works, that full implementation can actually happen within the bounds of the teachers contract. It's not just a virtue signal, like hey, you have an hour a week to prepare structurally. Guess what? This thing takes 57 minutes a week to prepare for. Fine. But if you're telling me that you have 100 minutes a week to prepare, but the thing takes 5 hours a week to prepare for, Houston, we have a problem. So those are some things we can do.

[00:19:02.25] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, I think you, from a professional learning standpoint too, I mean, this is a leader's coaching leader's podcast. It's sponsored by Corwin. And I think publishers have a stake in this as well, as far as the responsibility on what we-- on what people publish as well, what they're putting out there.

[00:19:19.89] And I like what you're saying too about the idea of-- I do a lot of work around self-efficacy. And we know that vicarious learning experiences is one of the best ways to actually raise the confidence and belief that somebody has in their own abilities. And the whole idea of models of successful practice, and looking for those, and going in as a learner.

[00:19:38.79] I think there's so much to unpack with what you're saying because even from a leadership standpoint, I always talk about how I go in-- even when I'm running a workshop or coaching, I'm going in as a learner. I'm not just going in as some expert. And I think leaders need to be able to have the space that they can go in as a learner as well and not with this fake idea that they're supposed to know it all when they really don't. I think that's going to be something that's probably pretty important as well.

[00:20:06.00] KAREEM WEAVER: Well, Peter, let me push you a little bit. I'm going to push.

[00:20:07.82] PETER DEWITT: Sure.

[00:20:08.74] KAREEM WEAVER: So in the publishing space, I think-- so I've had an opportunity to engage with CEOs of publishers and ask them questions and sit with them, et cetera. I've done videos I think that ruffled some feathers. And so they reached out. And I had an opportunity to sit with their teams.

[00:20:22.42] So I bucketed them. And there's two kinds of publishers. There's two. You have one that's the nonprofit publisher. Usually, they're a little bit smaller. And some of them have-- and they've got their mission, their vision. And they usually have a leaning. Whatever their brand is, they have a leaning in an idea about how reading should be taught.

[00:20:45.46] And so they market those things. They push those products because that's aligned with their beliefs. And sometimes, the publishing house is one and the same with the authors of the material. So you've got those folks. And that's a big group.

[00:21:02.10] Then you've got for profit area. I'm trying to tell you, I was ruthless. I spared no-- I gave them no quarter in how I pushed them. And then I engaged, which is funny how that works. I actually engaged directly with them. And they told me some things that made me step back. They're like we're not universities. We're publishers. It's not our job to tell educators what to do. It's our job to give them what they want.

[00:21:36.20] In fact, one CEO said, Kareem, if we were in Texas, we wouldn't sell electric vehicles because people in Texas, overwhelmingly, don't buy electric vehicles. They want SUVs. And so we'd sell SUVs. Well, if people want balanced literacy, I have a fiduciary responsibility to my shareholders to give school districts what they want rather than leading them by the nose and telling them what to do. That's not our role as a publisher. Our job is to provide the tools that the educators say they need.

[00:22:10.62] And I had to step back. Peter, I was like, wow, that-- uh. So because really as I was pointing the finger at them, I had to actually look at us and figure out, well, what is it about us that's causing us to ask and even demand for tools that haven't really shown a lot of effectiveness with kids. And they're going to keep giving us that as long as we demand it.

[00:22:36.22] And what is it about us as educators where we say, you don't have to declare how long this thing takes to do. You don't have to have any randomized controlled trials to show evidence of effectiveness. You don't have to do a lot of stuff. In fact, you don't have to integrate these different books and components-- your ELD component, and your writing component, and this, and that.

[00:22:55.21] It's OK for you to sell us 10 different books. So the literacy program, knowing good and well we only have X number of time to prepare for it, it's on us that we're saying that we're not saying. You have to synthesize these things. We want the ELD to be core. We want all students to have these basic skills and these foundational elements to be-- and we want it to be enriching and cultural.

[00:23:19.17] Why aren't we doing that? And so as much as I want to blame publishers-- and I do blame publishers for some of this, don't get me wrong. I also have to look in the mirror and say, we've got to do a better job as consumers of these products demanding what we need to get kids and to help teachers get kids where they need to go.

[00:23:35.44] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, and I want to be clear. I'm not blaming publishers for sure because I work with one, but I also feel like when I'm looking at Full and Complete Reading and Tanya, my editor who I partner with on this coaching podcast, I have a book on the implementation coming out.

[00:23:55.54] And one of the pieces of research that I was looking at was the fact that publishers that put a brain scan under on their books, the consumers actually thought that that was a more credible resource just because they had a brain scan. Now, what the researchers found is that it wasn't.

[00:24:13.18] So when I look at Full and Complete Reading, that's one of the reasons why I asked you about it at the beginning. I feel like there's a full and complete responsibility of us all because this is a nationwide, yes, worldwide, but we're talking nationwide issue right now. And I think we all have the responsibility to be able to understand what is the best-- what are the best methods? What can we learn from-- what can we do?

[00:24:36.07] One of the areas that you mentioned was dyslexia. And I know that you do a lot of work in dyslexia. So this is where, I guess, I would like to be able to start wrapping up our talk together, even though I feel I could talk to you for another hour and a half.

[00:24:51.17] Why is it that dyslexia is still so hard for people to understand and there are so many-- there seem to be myths around dyslexia. And what is your mission when it comes to helping clear up those myths around dyslexia and how to help students? Does that question make sense?

[00:25:10.33] KAREEM WEAVER: Yeah, why dyslexia, why is it such a murky issue, or murky dynamic, and how do we try to help bring clarity to? Our understanding of dyslexia is still evolving, but we do know that there are neurological processes that people with dyslexia have that are a little different. And there's a continuum. Not everyone is the same. There's a continuum. And you have dysgraphia, dyscalculia, and some of the things.

[00:25:43.11] But most universities have not taught their candidates about dyslexia. Most school leaders have not had professional development on dyslexia and have not provided those opportunities to the staff members. And so we've been flying blind on this, even though this is something that IDEA federal law touches on, it's a no fly zone when it comes to dyslexia.

[00:26:10.96] In fact, many school systems will actively-- they will do anything possible to avoid this conversation that we're having right now because when you identify dyslexia, then you've got to do something about it. And if you don't know what to do about it, it's much easier to simply ignore it and have those who have advocacy, whether it's an education attorney or someone, allow them to go to a non-public school, pay their private tuition, get them to sign a non-disclosure agreement and just keep it quiet. And that's what most school systems do.

[00:26:47.89] But the reason why this is such an important topic is because this kids with dyslexia, I call them the canaries in the coal mine. You can look in there. And if they're OK, there's air down there. They're getting what everybody can live, but if they're gone, if they're struggling, then more than likely, there's a problem.

[00:27:09.49] And the students with dyslexia, they're like everybody else. They just need things done a certain way. You have to use this leverage to science and research. You have to make sure they're hearing the sounds accurately-- so your phonemic awareness. Your program has to be effective. You can't have gaps. And you can't skip steps. They expose our inconsistencies.

[00:27:34.50] And so part of the reason why there's been this resistance to dyslexia, first of all, it's like I said, it's an evolving field, but then there's also the power dynamic because when you have anywhere between 15% and 20% of kids with dyslexia but you have about 50% of your inmate population being dyslexic and you have 42% of the self-made millionaires being dyslexic.

[00:27:59.03] It makes people say, wait a second. I thought those were the kids that aren't smart. Now, come find out those are the kids that need things taught a certain way. And that they process information a certain way. And they can thrive. They can thrive.

[00:28:16.22] So there's also the fact that our materials, our leaders, our pedagogies have not included those who are dyslexic. So for example-- and I'm talking about in education.

[00:28:32.81] PETER DEWITT: Yeah.

[00:28:33.49] KAREEM WEAVER: We have wonderful things in other fields, but in education, most people who run our school systems are not dyslexic. I know the new mayor of New York is and some other folks are. If they were or if they had a child who was dyslexic, one of our theories of change is that when people have that experience, it changes them. They no longer ignore things because it's all smoke and mirrors until it happens to you.

[00:29:03.33] And when you live through your brother, or sister, or your child is dyslexic. And you see the effort they're putting in and the confusion that happens. And you know it's not because they're not smart. They're clearly smart. You grew up with them. You know them. You love them, but something's not right. It changes you. And it makes us step back from our own learner's bias and say, what do we need to do to get those kids read? What do we need to do to provide opportunities for those individuals?

[00:29:31.91] So it's been a hot button topic because they haven't been considered in our structures. We had a Facebook group with Fountas and Pinnell. And one of their moderators, I guess, she just became frustrated. Some of the dyslexic moms were really on her. And she said, you know what? And I'm paraphrasing.

[00:30:00.45] First of all, we're going to kick you out of the group if you don't tone it down. But the second thing was, why are we turning the whole system upside down for 20% of kids? It's working just fine. And it was the shot heard around the world. And of course, at that point, like I said, the dyslexia moms just ate her alive. They had to take it out of the chat because she touched on something. This is working for some people.

[00:30:26.52] PETER DEWITT: Yeah.

[00:30:27.92] KAREEM WEAVER: And why are we-- why are we changing everything? Why are we pushing on all these norms just to serve certain kids? Well, that's when you get into the law and what is a free and appropriate public education. Those students have the right to an education, and not just in some marginalized classroom down the hall, in core classroom instruction.

[00:30:47.87] And so our structures have to be geared to serve all kids, including kids with dyslexia. They do have rights. Yeah, and that's one of the reasons why I like working with the dyslexic community because those parents-- like I often say, we have to build a coalition.

[00:31:06.38] And one of the things that I have discovered is that people whose children have dyslexia are so close to the fire that they become very intense. It's not a theory. It's not a talking point. It's none of that. It's not education jargon. It's their life, their child, their husband, their spouse, whatever. And they are relentless because they have to be.

[00:31:33.59] And so I always say, I work with them because they make the best allies because they're serious. And I have common cause with them. Unfortunately, there are some groups who are rarely diagnosed for dyslexia. Some people think that dyslexia is a white thing. My daughter is dyslexic. She just got diagnosed last year.

[00:31:52.47] When you get diagnosed, you may have some implications or some grounding in your demographics, but this affects everybody. And so on that basis, it opens a door for collaboration because we have a mutual urgency around making sure our kids get what they need in core classroom instruction.

[00:32:15.06] PETER DEWITT: Well, if not with us, where else are they going to get it?

[00:32:17.64] KAREEM WEAVER: That's right. Well, I'll tell you where they're going to get it. I'll tell you where they're going to get it. Somebody is going to pay for tutoring. If you look at these districts who have great test scores and whatnot, go Google Kumon Center and map out where the Kumon and Sylvan centers are around that district.

[00:32:37.08] If there are people with resources and their school districts isn't giving them good foundational instruction or foundational instruction, that's a business opportunity. And so you'll see them populated all around these districts, where the kids need to learn. And the parents have the resources, so where are they going to go? They're going to go to Kumon. They're going to go to whatever tutoring service that they can access that's determined by their pocketbook.

[00:33:03.48] PETER DEWITT: So as we wrap it up, I want to-- I see and I keep saying, I could keep talking to you. One of the things that we like to be able to do when we leave each podcast is give something for people to think about. And you've certainly given them a lot to think about, but if people are going to walk away from this listening to this podcast, our interview, our conversation, what are you hoping they're going to get out of this conversation?

[00:33:31.53] KAREEM WEAVER: I hope they realize there's a pathway to getting 95% of all kids to read and read proficiently. And when AFT said that 10 years ago and put it on their website, people thought they were crazy, but according to the research, guess what? They're right. So I want them to walk away being curious, being willing to learn, being willing to discover. We're heading into summer. This is a time for relaxation but also a time for discovery.

[00:33:57.51] There is a better path. And we have to trust our better instincts. Most educators go into the field knowing or hoping to do right by kids. And we can get all kids to learn. And we can teach all kids. That's our thing, but we get worn down and sometimes even are made cynical by the realities of the work and by these tools that don't work. But I want people to be hopeful. Your best instincts were right. All kids can learn. We just have to be willing to learn ourselves so that we can give them what they need.

[00:34:32.56] PETER DEWITT: Well, as a kid that graduated fourth from last in my class from high school and failed out of two community colleges, I totally agree with what you're saying. So Kareem Weaver, I want to thank you for being on the Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast. This was a fascinating conversation for many, many reasons. So thank you for being on.

[00:34:48.97] KAREEM WEAVER: Peter, it's my pleasure. Best of luck to you and yours.

[00:34:53.65] TANYA GHANS: So that session was, I think, nothing short of phenomenal. Again, it's true we say this a lot, but some really just do almost keep you-- they make you speechless. And I have to say, in listening to this episode, there are several times I was speechless.

[00:35:11.20] One of the things that stood out to me, and there are so many, is something really simple about his idea of why it is important to help leaders discover some of this work on their own and respecting the fact that if people are just set up in a context to the right tools and the right information because they want to do what's best for children that they can be quite open to it.

[00:35:38.26] And one of the biggest roadblocks is models of it. If there aren't enough models of schools and children who are doing well with reading, especially in high needs areas, it's very hard to ask people to replicate that.

[00:35:53.92] So how do you make sure that people are just getting access to what is proven on the ground? There's proven in the book which should lead to proven on the ground, but getting leaders more access to examples of it working. And I think, Kareem Weaver is a place where you can really start to get those examples for leaders. So that's one piece that really stood out to me. Peter, what do you--

[00:36:20.38] PETER DEWITT: I think that listeners will probably notice, if they really listened, that I did a lot of uh-huh, uh-huh. I felt myself saying, uh-huh, that's why I said at the beginning, we had some amen moments. There are so many reasons why I enjoyed the conversation.

[00:36:36.04] One, and I said it during the conversation that I'm a former first grade teacher. I taught kids how to read. And being an elementary school teacher for 11 years and then a principal for 8, this topic is so important. But also just in the work that I do with in particular the literacy coaches in New York City alone have been a fantastic group to work with. And there are so many of these conversations that we've had in my time with them. So it's just-- it was great.

[00:37:06.80] One of the-- he said so many things. And one of the things that I liked about him is that when I started to do searches, and I started to look at Twitter, and see what he tweeted out, and all that stuff like I do for all the guests that are going to be on, he is not one to do the blame game.

[00:37:23.47] He is talking about our responsibility. And even when we are talking about publishers-- and that was an important conversation to have. He was talking about publishers are giving us what we want. And we have to change what it is that we want. And I think, it's a dual responsibility. And I think that's what we're trying to do by having a conversation.

[00:37:42.44] But then I asked him about dyslexia, which I know is not only a passion of his but an area of expertise. And he said something that just-- I'm a huge fan of quotations. But he said, they expose our inconsistencies. And what he was talking about there is that many people who try to ignore that, they'll try to move on, but they're there exposing our inconsistencies.

[00:38:09.28] And that's what we have to pay attention to. Instead of blaming students for not getting it, we have to look at what is it about our practices that need to improve? How do we need to be more inclusive in what we're doing? And there is just-- yeah, there are just so many things that I enjoyed about this conversation.

[00:38:26.39] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, I think this is one of those episodes that I know I can and listeners will probably want to hear several times to really get down everything that was shared because there was-- it's just so packed full of wisdom and common sense. And again, the coalition building. We need more of that today where people are looking to build bridges. So I'm very excited about this content. So happy to learn this more on this topic with you today.

[00:38:55.18] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, so the first thing I'm going to do when I get off this-- when we close this down is I'm getting on Twitter and I'm following Kareem.

[00:39:03.49] TANYA GHANS: I'm already a follower, but I'm going to look for some more places where I can lend my support.

[00:39:09.26] PETER DEWITT: All right, Tanya. Always good to see you.

[00:39:11.44] TANYA GHANS: You too, enjoy the rest of your day.

[00:39:13.36] PETER DEWITT: You as well.

[00:39:14.41] TANYA GHANS: Bye bye.