Emotional Intelligence in Leadership and Education With Marc Brackett

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[00:00:00.30] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Corwin's Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast with hosts Peter Dewitt and Michael Nelson. This podcast is from education leaders, for education leaders. Every week, Peter, Mike, and our guests get together to share ideas, put research into practice, and ensure that every student is learning not by chance, but by design.

[00:00:25.79] PETER DEWITT: Michael Nelson, here we are for another episode of Leaders Coaching Leaders. And the guest is once again fantastic.

[00:00:35.10] MICHAEL NELSON: Marc Brackett, author of Permission to Feel-- he has another book that's he just finished. It's going to be out in a year or so. And just looks like he completed a documentary all around the same subject. Peter, this is a great podcast.

[00:00:50.55] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, so Marc is the founding director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence and a professor in the Child Study Center at Yale. He is the author of the best-selling book that you just mentioned, Permission to Feel, which has been translated into over 26 languages.

[00:01:08.93] So I remember a friend of mine, Tara Nell, many years ago, or a few years ago, sent me an email. And she said, I'm sending you a book that I think you would be really interested in reading. And she sent me Permission to Feel. And I read it, and I really enjoyed it. It hit home back then a bit.

[00:01:35.04] And then I actually had Marc on a seat at the table for Education Week, not long after that, maybe, like, six months after that. And he's just really remarkable to talk with. And you know him quite well.

[00:01:50.04] MICHAEL NELSON: Yes. In Washington State, he was our first. I was in charge of professional learning for the Washington Association of School Administrators. And during COVID, all of our conference had to be virtual. But he was the very first keynote speaker at our initial conference after post-COVID when we could return to in-person.

[00:02:11.06] And talk about an incredible topic. So we've just gone through COVID. Staff has lots of feelings. Our leaders, our superintendents, principals all have lots of feelings. And Marc came in and not only supported the participants, but gave them ways in which they could support the teams in which they work.

[00:02:35.49] And to this day-- this is three years later-- Peter, the people are still talking about that as a really defining moment in their role as a leader in Washington State. And of course, has a lot to do with the emotions tied to COVID and the first conference post-COVID.

[00:02:53.82] But just you know that phrase "just-in-time learning?" This was just-in-time learning for administrators. But I have to say, the next 35 minutes that our listeners are going to experience, I think it's going to be just in time. I will definitely be re-listening to this podcast several times.

[00:03:11.11] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, I will as well, and we can keep this intro short. I think that for me, Marc is clearly a learner. And I mean, we know he's a researcher and all that stuff, but he's very passionate about the topic and what he can learn. And he has a way to talk about things like self-regulation in a way that all of us can understand, no matter what our background is. So I appreciate the fact that he did that in there as well.

[00:03:42.15] All right, everyone, well, welcome to the podcast interview with Marc Brackett. Enjoy.

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[00:03:54.51] NARRATOR: Picture yourself popularly known among staff members as the reliable go-to person who makes meaningful change happen. This is possible when you equip yourself with robust strategies and tools from Corwin's leadership workshops. Sign up today at corwin.com.

[00:04:09.44] PETER DEWITT: Marc Brackett, welcome to the Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast. It's really good to see you.

[00:04:14.02] MARC BRACKETT: It's great to see you guys, too.

[00:04:16.47] PETER DEWITT: So I have to-- I am going to start off by being very open and honest with you. I only have one notification that goes off on my phone. When I get a text, I get an email. I get no notifications whatsoever. I have one notification that goes off in the morning at 6:15 and at 5:30 in the evening. And that's the How We Feel app.

[00:04:40.58] MARC BRACKETT: That's awesome. I remember us talking about that briefly that I'd like to know what you've learned about yourself from the app, actually.

[00:04:50.26] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, you're not going to turn this on me, but that was very smooth, by the way. I think there are a few things because Mike often talks about a speech you were giving in Washington State where he saw you. And you were talking about leaders going in to do teacher observations and stuff. So I think there's always that part in the back of my head.

[00:05:12.61] But when I get up in the morning and look at the app, I'm very open and honest about if I'm feeling anxious or something like that. And what I have learned from reading more of your work-- because I mean, I read Permission to Feel several times. But following you on Instagram and reading research, I think it's the self-regulation part that's most important for me.

[00:05:37.03] It's OK, this is how I'm feeling, so how I need to acknowledge it? And then how do I turn it around? And you're doing a lot more where self-regulation is concerned. That's actually going to be your next book, correct?

[00:05:50.62] MARC BRACKETT: It is. It's finished, thank goodness. But it takes a year to come out, unfortunately. But yeah, it's called Dealing with Feeling.

[00:05:58.22] PETER DEWITT: So I think the self-regulation part is something that when Mike and I are using your work with leaders, just meaning talking about how are you feeling when we start this workshop and those kind of things, we talk about the importance of self-regulation. So why is that space, those moments, so important for us to acknowledge and engage in, whether we're leaders or just being human?

[00:06:27.19] MARC BRACKETT: Well, you're getting-- there's a lot there. And I think it's-- one of the things that I'm doing-- I'll just do a little bit of a look-ahead to my the next project that I've been working on, which is about emotion regulation, is that I really do think we need a new mindset about it. That the term, even self-regulation, for some people is a trigger. You're trying to regulate me? You're trying to make me control my feelings?

[00:06:56.71] Now, in the psychology literature, it's a term, and so we use it. But I really like to think about emotion regulation as learning how to use all of our emotions wisely to achieve goals. And so we regulate for a reason. We don't have to regulate.

[00:07:16.88] I mean, thank God. I mean, part of the interesting thing about this work is that, my goodness, if you were checking in with your feelings and regulating all day long, you'd go crazy, right? It's like, enough with the regulation. But most of the time, we don't need regulating. Our body just kind of adapts to our environments. We're not always experiencing strong emotions.

[00:07:38.49] It's like you get up in the morning. If you're feeling kind of content or maybe even a little down, doesn't mean you have to do anything about it. You just kind of continue with your day. It's when someone says something like, I don't like you, and you're activated, or you get that crazy-- if you're a leader of a school, you get that parent who shows up in your face and is like, you're ruining my kid's life, or it's a colleague, or it's a whatever. It's when we get activated.

[00:08:11.29] The way I like to think about it is when our relationship with our environment changes, that's when we need strategies. And it's important because, I mean, we all have worked with people, especially in education, who don't know how to deal with their feelings. And it's not fun. It's just not fun because it makes us feel unsafe.

[00:08:40.17] It doesn't make you want to provide support. And a list of other unfortunate things happens, I think. So anyway, learning how to use emotions wisely to achieve goals, to have good relationships, to have well-being, to make good decisions is the way I think about emotion regulation.

[00:09:02.99] PETER DEWITT: I want to ask a follow up. Has your work become more difficult because of the political polarization that can happen for word? I remember being in California. I was out there coaching. Made the mistake of sitting at a bar, not with my phone.

[00:09:21.51] I was going to engage with a person who talked to me. And all of a sudden, social emotional learning came up, and she went on a tirade about how bad social emotional learning is. And I asked, when you talk about social emotional learning, can you give me examples of what that looks like?

[00:09:38.22] Because she just seemed so angry. And I thought, why would you be so angry about this? So has your work become more difficult because of that polarization that's happened?

[00:09:47.25] MARC BRACKETT: A little bit. And the field has had more challenges because of it. One of the things that I think we do at our center well is we define things really clearly. And also our work primarily is focused on the concept of emotional intelligence.

[00:10:06.93] And I think that when you talk about emotional intelligence to people, they can imagine what it is. They see it. It's a person who kind of shows empathy, has good skills at relating to people, can manage their emotions, builds good relationships. Whereas, the term social and emotional learning has been hit a lot these days. It's unfortunate.

[00:10:31.87] I stand by it as a field, and I will not change the name. I think that's ridiculous. I've seen people want to call it life skills or durable skills or something else. I just think that's weird. And what I think the field needs to do is be super clear about what it is, how it's measured, and how it's taught. And that's where the confusion lies.

[00:10:59.26] What happens is that when we talk about these things in broad strokes, people get a little nervous. They're like, what do you-- are you doing social engineering on my kid? It's like, no, what do you mean by that?

[00:11:12.52] Let me tell you what I do. And I usually start when I go into audiences that are more kind of-- I've been told in advance. Like, look out, Marc, they're going to get you. I say, I'm just curious, has anyone in the room have children or colleagues who are super stressed out right now? Everybody raised their hand.

[00:11:31.90] I said, how many of you think your lives would be easier, and their lives would be a little easier if they could deal with those emotions? Everybody raised their hand. I said, that's a big part of what this work is about. And I say things like, my goal is to make sure that everyone has a good vocabulary so they communicate clearly, and that they have strategies so that when they're stressed, when they're sad, they can manage it effectively.

[00:11:59.55] Oh, OK. It's clear as opposed to-- I think what unfortunately has happened is that-- and I think this is really what it is-- that there are movements, and probably rightfully so, about making sure that we're gender-inclusive. Certainly, we need to talk about race and understand it more deeply.

[00:12:30.05] But I don't really understand why those things have to be merged in with social and emotional development. I think that it's-- certainly, everything is linked together. But if I'm going to provide every child with a language to describe their feelings, I'm going to do that for a child who is gay or straight or Black or white or Asian. We're going to try to create an organization or a school system, from my perspective, where everybody has language so everybody can communicate.

[00:13:02.84] And we do have to take into consideration culture because our way, wherever our way is at, meaning I grew up in Clifton, New Jersey. So the rules where I grew up in Clifton, New Jersey, are not the same as they are now where I live in Connecticut, which are not the same as New York City, which are not the same up in Washington State or in Albany or in South Korea or in Hong Kong, where I just was.

[00:13:30.94] But that's being a global citizen, which is important. We need to understand that not everybody operates the way we operate. And that is part of that. That can be part of social emotional learning because it's about being curious about what makes other people feel the way they do.

[00:13:51.39] MICHAEL NELSON: Well, Thanks, Marc, for that. I just need to let you know that just a couple days ago-- I think it was October 1-- it was, three years ago, the very first in-person event post-COVID for our superintendents. And we had the privilege of having you to Washington State.

[00:14:09.08] And that conversation on that day still is rippling among leaders. And you have-- sorry that you're going to-- I don't mean to give you all these compliments right now, but you have a way to break down research, make it real, make it doable and accepted by everybody. Your example of what you just did with an audience who may not be receptive-- the way you framed those questions seem to be a way that was accepted by all.

[00:14:44.29] Peter and I travel across the United States. And we just got back from a two-and-a-half-week trip in Australia and working with educators. And we're seeing lots of leaders who are feeling that-- first of all, lots of leaders who are stressed, like what Peter said, lots of leaders who are new to their position. The turnover rate in the last four years, five years has been incredible.

[00:15:12.86] How might you-- and I have a son who's one of those individuals. So he's in his third year of being a full principal, was assistant principal of a high school before that, but a middle school principal. How does this work apply to the leader of a school or the leader of systems, different than teachers or students?

[00:15:32.78] MARC BRACKETT: Yeah. Well, I mean, leaders have to be role models. There's no way around it because if you're working in a school, and you don't feel safe around your leader, there's not much to do other than leave your job because that sense, that feeling of stability is important.

[00:15:57.29] And our research shows that teachers who work in schools with leaders who are higher in emotional intelligence, they experience just way more pleasant emotions to unpleasant emotions. They also are just less burnt out. They're less likely to want to leave the profession. And they just like their jobs more.

[00:16:21.73] And you might wonder, OK, well, why is that? Well, just think about it. Especially, we found these findings were particularly important during the pandemic. We found even the teachers who they themselves experienced like more traumatically-- more traumatic experiences related to COVID than if they had that. And they worked in a school where there was a leader with higher emotional intelligence, they actually did better.

[00:16:52.58] And so I think the question is, OK, so what's going on here? Well, think about this. In many ways, the leader sets the culture and climate. So if I walked into a staff meeting during COVID, and I'm like, everybody, I'm freaking out. I don't know what's going to happen.

[00:17:10.87] And I don't know about all of you, but I'm spraying my groceries. And then it's like, oh, gosh, you know? That's unsettling for someone. If a parent does that, it's the same thing.

[00:17:23.76] And I think what's interesting about emotional intelligence is that it's not about the feeling. There's no such thing as a bad feeling. You can be anxious during a pandemic. You should be anxious during a pandemic.

[00:17:37.41] But we have basically not taught people the regulation piece or how to use that emotion wisely to achieve a goal. So you might say, using a different framing with your anxiety, everybody, it would be weird for me not to tell you that I'm anxious. These are really weird times.

[00:18:01.07] But it's interesting because when we're anxious, that means we're kind of afraid of the future because there's a lot to be afraid of potentially. But I want to use our anxiety to really prepare our school to be the safest place for you and for our kids. We're going to be in planning mode right now. We're going to channel all that anxiety to think about all the things that could go wrong, and we're going to be solution-focused about them.

[00:18:27.77] Totally different feeling, right? Same feeling, but totally different feeling about the feeling, meaning I can be the anxious leader, but communicate in a way that creates an action orientation as opposed to a fight-flight orientation.

[00:18:46.73] PETER DEWITT: So--

[00:18:47.47] MICHAEL NELSON: Yeah, go ahead.

[00:18:49.84] PETER DEWITT: So I've actually been-- I see your Instagram posts quite often. And today, I noticed a few that said that you have a documentary that is coming out. So could you talk a little bit about the documentary?

[00:19:02.62] MARC BRACKETT: Sure so it's called America Unfiltered-- Portraits and Voices of a Nation. And it was a film that I ended up becoming the producer of. So my partner is a filmmaker. And during the pandemic, nobody's making movies. You don't see anybody making out on a movie set the first month or two of the pandemic. So they're all shut down.

[00:19:30.83] And he decided, you know what? I can't wait. And so I'm going to LA. Going to pick up a car because we had an apartment there because he's in the film business. And I'm going to drive across the United States, and I'm going to do photography. And it's going to take three weeks by myself to take photos and just get away from you. Not a problem.

[00:19:53.13] Got out to LA, connected with some friends. Everybody was out of work in the film industry. One of his friends is-- so Orazio is a Panamanian immigrant. And Kirill, who is his film partner, is a Russian immigrant. They're chatting, and they're like, no, we're going to make a movie.

[00:20:12.93] And they call me. Like, we're making a movie. And I'm like, OK, what's the movie about? And we're just going to interview people. I'm like, OK, well, how long do you think it's going to take? Well, maybe two months instead of three weeks.

[00:20:24.07] I'm like, all right, so is this going on our credit card? What's happening here? Long story short is that-- then we started having really rich conversations. And well, I'm not a movie producer. I am a director of a large center that has a huge budget, and I know how to budget and fundraise.

[00:20:40.33] So briefly, I just said, we're going to put together a budget. I'm going to reach out to some people that I think might want to participate in this, and we'll make it happen. So it took me two weeks. I was very fortunate. I raised all the money to make the film.

[00:20:57.61] And instead of it taking the original three weeks, they traveled for nine months. And so it was a nine-month journey around the United Cakes. And it wasn't-- interestingly enough, just talking about this intersection of schools in the real world.

[00:21:14.15] So I know a lot of people in the education world around the United States. I'm like, oh, you can visit my friend Joe, who's a professor at UCLA. I know the principal of this school in Nevada. And they're like, nah, we don't want to do that.

[00:21:26.06] We want to be in the real, real, real, real world. And so they went into gun shop owners and just spoke with gun shop owners. They met people who were going to be in the KKK. They met undocumented immigrants who were at the verge of being deported. They met Black moms whose children had been murdered by the police.

[00:21:54.99] And so they focused on these very kind of deep stories of people in America. And we had one simple question, which is related to my work, which is, how does it feel to live in America today? What does it feel like to be an American right now?

[00:22:12.84] And what we found was that not everybody has the same perspective. Some people were shocked by the question. Some people said, I don't feel like an American because the way I'm treated this country. And that the movie is a journey across America, trying to find the answer to the question, what does it mean to be an American?

[00:22:30.96] And I think how-- I'll make the connection now to my work on emotional intelligence, which is a talk that I just did today in Virginia and-- or last night, actually. It was not today, feels like today. But the number-- firstly, I mean, we have 800 hours of footage.

[00:22:55.70] We did sit-down interviews with people from every walk of life. And the shortest amount of time is two and a half hours. Everybody wanted to talk, everybody. And this was very politically diverse. We went to Trump rallies. We went to Biden rallies during the 2020 elections.

[00:23:18.22] We went into places with homeless people on the street, as I said, gun shop owners, bar owners, Black Lives Matter protests. We just went everywhere to speak to people. Nobody said no. Everybody wanted to speak to us, no matter what their political affiliation was, no matter what their racial identity was, no matter what their gender identity was, which was remarkable.

[00:23:47.51] And I think that's a big lesson for all of us, is that if you approach people with sincerity and openness, they want to talk to you. People want to tell you their stories.

[00:24:05.90] And so I've done this research. I'm going to now jump to the research and bring it back to the movie. So since I met you, Mike, and my book had come out, I have now done this research study with about 25,000 people across the world. And my question is, based on my book, which is Permission to Feel, did you have an Uncle Marvin? And if you did, how would you describe your Uncle Marvin or your Aunt Maria?

[00:24:40.11] And so what I find in my research is that only about a third of people across the world say they had someone that they could talk to about their feelings when they were growing up, which is pretty sad. And when I asked them to describe those people, no matter where I go-- I did this in Australia recently. I did in Italy and Spain, in Costa Rica, in Hong Kong, and all over the United States.

[00:25:07.73] No matter where I go, there's three characteristics. First one, non-judgmental. Second one, good listener. Third one, empathic. And the rest are similar, but those are the top three.

[00:25:26.83] And so, firstly, I've done this now with leaders, too. And when you think about those three characteristics, I mean, they're kind of the characteristics of just being a good human, right? And so think about that-- non-judgmental, good listener, and empathic.

[00:25:55.18] And I think what was cool about the film is that-- I wasn't on the journey. I was the one booking the hotels and yelling at them for spending too much money on Thai food. But they were traveling, and they approached everyone, no matter who they were, with a non-judgmental lens. They just listened, and they showed that they cared about their story.

[00:26:17.38] And I think that's a lesson for all of us in terms of being a good leader. And very interestingly, nowhere in the research does anyone say, brilliant, wise, smart, fixer, problem solver. So in the end, when we're reflecting on our childhoods, and we're thinking about the people that helped us to flourish, they weren't the people who told us what to do. They weren't the people who we saw as the brightest people in the whole wide world. They were the people who cared.

[00:26:57.12] And I'm-- this is going to be another book that's coming after this one because I'm just collecting all these stories about the Uncle Marvin's around the world, and I'm just blown away by it. And I'm blown away by the fact that only a third of people say they didn't have someone.

[00:27:13.56] And the last thing I'll just say is I've been really interested in asking adults, what gets in the way of you being an Uncle Marvin? And this comes back to the work. Number one, time. Another time, it's like, it's too much work. I'm like, it's too much work to be non-judgmental. Can you explain that one to me?

[00:27:39.39] It's actually more work to be judgmental when you really think about it. It's like, you got to put a lot of effort into finding what's wrong with everybody. When you're non-judgmental, you're just open.

[00:27:48.03] The second is fear. The people are afraid to be intimate. And I don't mean intimate in the intimate way. I mean close. They're afraid to ask people, how are you feeling? Because they don't know what to do when they hear what it is.

[00:28:06.13] Like, if I said to you, hey, Peter, how are you feeling? And you're like, Marc, the truth is I'm feeling anxious. Ugh, why did I ask? Why don't you just say fine so we can move on?

[00:28:16.15] And so I share that with you because that goes back to the skills of emotional intelligence that nobody has developed. Do you feel like-- it's all circular here that we're afraid to ask the question because, A, we don't want to spend the time on it. But if you go deeper into the why, It's because, actually, I don't know what to do about it because I never got an emotional education.

[00:28:41.46] MICHAEL NELSON: Thank you. Part of me just wants to pause and breathe and soak in what you just said, but I'll just keep using Hans for a minute. Marc is-- the simple switch that he didn't get a chance to hear you. You've not had a chance to meet him.

[00:29:00.73] And he's just a really good kid, in my eyes, but he's becoming a really good leader. And I just said what if you changed, when you greet people, what you say? Well, I ask them how they are.

[00:29:13.98] I said, well, what if you said, how are you feeling rather than how are you? Because I said, what do you normally get as the response? And that all came from you.

[00:29:22.12] And he said that simple shift in his building has caused every-- people are-- there's a genuineness that is beginning to--

[00:29:34.68] MARC BRACKETT: That's awesome.

[00:29:35.16] MICHAEL NELSON: And it's a realness. And I'll share one other story, and I would love for you to think through the lens of the leader who are dealing with-- there's nothing more personal than an administrator coming into my-- I'm a teacher-- my classroom.

[00:29:50.26] It's the students that I've cherished. And I'm working with elementary. I'm with them five and a half, six hours every day. And you're coming in for 30 minutes. These are my treasured little ones.

[00:30:02.53] Your story about-- that had a huge impact on me. And again, I shared it with Hans is, do you know how you're feeling before going into that observation? Because if you're feeling way on the scale of anxiousness, frustrated versus on the scale of, I've had a great day-- everything was lined up before I go in to do this observation-- my write-up's going to be significantly different on those two spectrums.

[00:30:29.33] How might you expand on what I just shared? I certainly didn't share it in the way in which you did. But how would you guide leaders to-- before critical conversations? When you talk about, look at the chart before critical conversations with moms and dads and teachers. You don't have to do it every minute of every day. But--

[00:30:50.12] MARC BRACKETT: No don't want to do it. You really want to check in during important transitions. So it's like before I go into the meeting with my team, or I'm going to be giving people-- sharing the vision or giving them feedback before I transition from work to home. And I want to greet my home and my family, and I want to be present.

[00:31:11.26] That's what you really need to check in because what happens, based on what the researchy piece of what you're talking about is that there's this concept of affect infusion that our emotions are with us no matter what. You're always feeling, just like anybody-- that's just the way we operate. We are feelings creatures. We don't necessarily have to ask ourselves how we're feeling, but we are buzzing with affect.

[00:31:42.81] And we know from research is that emotions drive our decision-making, but it is a trick to it. It's that emotions, when we're not conscious of them, have a stronger impact on our decision-making. So here's the best example.

[00:32:05.04] If you're a parent, have you ever lost it with your kids? You just sort of yelling and screaming, like, I can't believe you did that. And like, yes, right?

[00:32:13.72] MICHAEL NELSON: I never did that.

[00:32:15.44] PETER DEWITT: I was going to say, you're talking to the wrong person on that one. Mike never--

[00:32:20.10] [INTERPOSING VOICES]

[00:32:21.60] MICHAEL NELSON: I'm completely joking, and Peter is, too. But yeah.

[00:32:24.82] PETER DEWITT: No, I'm actually not. I've never seen this man lose it in the time that I've known him.

[00:32:29.20] MARC BRACKETT: Yeah, Mike, you have a certain type of ethic, which we can talk about that later.

[00:32:34.05] MICHAEL NELSON: I'm a little scared to.

[00:32:35.34] PETER DEWITT: I want to talk about that one. Yes, I'll pay for that right there.

[00:32:40.26] MARC BRACKETT: So when a parent is yelling at their kid or a leader is so crazily overwhelmed that they're freaking out in a staff meeting, they're probably not conscious in that moment and saying to them something like, the reason why I am belittling my child right now is because I'm angry. They're not doing that. It's automatic because they've been triggered, and they went into automaticity mode.

[00:33:14.00] And it's like they're not even 100% conscious of what they're saying. It's why people say, I didn't say that. Well, you did, just so you know. You weren't paying attention because it was coming out like vomit. But you were.

[00:33:26.72] And so the question is, is it the anger that's driving the building of a child? Is it the anxiety that's causing the leader to make everyone else feel anxious in their organization? No, it's not, actually. It's the anxiety that's outside of conscious awareness.

[00:33:55.32] Catch me here. So it's important to know that. So I'm irritable at home because I had a fight at home with my partner, and I'm ruminating about it as I go to work. Then I open the door to my office. And I just go in. And everybody's like, Marc, what do you think about this project? I'm like, I hate it because I'm still lingering with the anger.

[00:34:13.95] And scenario two is, I'm angry. I'm pissed. And before I enter the meeting, I pause. I take a deep breath. I'm like, Marc, how are you doing right now? Ugh, I'm pissed, really pissed off at what happened at home. Also you're in the red right now because of that.

[00:34:36.00] And that's the key element here, is that when we can attribute the feeling that we're having to where it came from, it won't have that effect in the future. It won't have that strong spillover in the future. And that's the power of emotional intelligence. It's saying my emotional self-awareness is a gift because I can literally attribute my emotion to where it's coming from, its cause, so that I don't have to take it out on the person next to me or allow it to unconsciously spill over.

[00:35:14.98] So this is-- when I've done this studies with grading papers, and I show that different teachers assign different grades, it's not than when you really want-- yes, it is. You want the teacher to be unaware that she's happy, or he's happy, when they're grading your papers because then you're going to always get good grades. They're going to be biased towards positive grades.

[00:35:36.09] And if they're in a really pissy mood, you don't want to be like, what do you think of paper because they're going to rip it to shreds. But it's not about that you can't be a good teacher or a good leader when you're angry or when you're sad or anxious or overwhelmed or happy or content. You just have to be aware of your feelings and have strategies to manage them.

[00:35:58.63] Just because you're dealing with your feeling doesn't mean you don't have the feeling. And I think that's another important point. Regulating your feeling is not getting rid of it. Most people think of it as like, I want to carve the anxiety and stress out of my brain. I want to get rid of my anger.

[00:36:20.67] You're not going to-- why would you want to get rid of it? If somebody said something that was mean or cruel to you, you should be angry. But we've been trained, or not trained, to react in certain ways based on what we learned growing up in our families and things of that sort.

[00:36:40.43] PETER DEWITT: You've certainly given us a lot to think about. And I'm going to close out the interview. I really want to ask the question about-- let's talk about Mike's effect, but I can't. I feel like I don't have enough time, so not that one.

[00:36:54.84] I want to just ask what might seem like a silly question. But I remember when Permission to Feel came out. And I love the title more now than I think I did when I first read it because you're absolutely right about providing the permission to field. But what have you learned over the years since the book has come out?

[00:37:15.82] I know you've talked about this new book that you've got out. You've got a documentary. You talked about you were surprised by that only one third of respondents said that they had an Uncle Marvin. What are a couple of things that you've learned over the past few years since writing?

[00:37:33.55] Because Michael and I are always focusing on the learner's mindset. We go into facilitate workshops. And we're going in, what can we learn? We go into coaching thinking, what can we learn? We have meetings with just the two of us, and I have learned a tremendous amount from him. What have you learned in the past few years since the book came out?

[00:37:52.00] MARC BRACKETT: Well, a couple of things. I think the first is, it's been translated now into 26 languages. And so I've learned that people all over the world are interested in this, which is really beautiful for me and encouraging. It's been translated into Ukraine. It's been translated into Bulgarian, Romanian, Italian, Spanish, Chinese, multiple forms, Portuguese, et cetera. There's many, many languages, which has been really fun, and to just go to those countries and explore how they think about Permission to Feel.

[00:38:36.98] I think the other thing is that there are cultural differences, but they're not as big as we might think they are. And the best example I have is my research on feelings mentors. So when I went to Hong Kong recently, it was for an education conference. It was 400 school principals, actually. And they all completed my survey.

[00:39:03.29] And they had the choice of doing it in Chinese or in English based on whatever they felt they wanted to do. And I have Chinese researchers on my team translate everything, analyze the data-- non-judgmental, good listening, empathy. Same exact findings, it couldn't have been any different.

[00:39:24.86] What I'll say that I've learned that I'll-- and I can talk on and on about what I've learned because I'm always learning, in learning mode. I'll just give you two more things because I know we got to wrap. The first is that the people who have permission to feel, who had that, their purpose and meaning. Life is about 20% higher than the person who doesn't have that in life. So it makes a huge difference in our development, including being better at dealing with your emotions as an adult, greater life satisfaction, better physical health, better mental health. So just having that feelings of mentor can really make a difference.

[00:40:10.44] But I'll end with a little anecdote. So I give this speech. And a good friend of mine came. He was in town. He's like, I never heard you speak. Can I come. And I said, sure.

[00:40:20.94] So I go through my spiel. And at the end, he was freaking out. He's like, now I know why I don't have that much purpose in meeting life. I didn't have an Uncle Marvin. And I'm like, oh, shit, that wasn't my goal. I don't want you to start feeling bad about yourself because 75% of the world doesn't have an Uncle Marvin.

[00:40:41.19] But it really has made me realize something that I think is important for everybody to know, which is that you can be your own Uncle Marvin. And at a certain point, we have to recognize what we had or didn't have. And we have to cultivate that in our own lives.

[00:41:02.37] And so for me, I'm trying to be my own Uncle Marvin, number one. Trying to be a better listener, it's tough for me because it's just tough. Nonjudgmental, ooh, really hard. The empathy piece I'm pretty good at. But the non-judgmental and the good listening, I need to work at.

[00:41:23.17] And so for me, that was the big opening in terms of my last where I've changed. I have to share one last thing, though, which is, I think-- just I have to.

[00:41:35.78] And Mike, I don't know if you heard this one or not because it might have happened after I saw you. So I'm giving a speech to a bunch of superintendents in New York State. And a superintendent jumps out of his seat. And he's like, are you talking about Marvin Moore, the sixth grade social studies teacher from Monticello, New York?

[00:41:54.31] And I said, I am. He's like, your Uncle Marvin was my Uncle Marvin. And I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, your uncle was my sixth grade social studies teacher, and he's the reason why I went into education and why I'm at where I'm at today.

[00:42:08.35] And so I said to him, please don't go anywhere. I really want to talk with you, but I got to finish my presentation. Anyhow, interview this guy for 45 minutes after my talk is over. He remembered everything, everything. I remember the twinkle in your uncle's eyes. I remember how he greeted us. I remember how he weaved those feeling words into our social studies curriculum and how to write these lessons in these stories, blew my mind.

[00:42:33.91] All right, so last words. At the end, he said, it's clear your uncle has had a profound influence on your life. And I said, everything. He's like, yeah, my career. And so he looked at me, and he goes, so I'm just curious, Marc, for whom are you an Uncle Marvin?

[00:42:53.52] I'm like, I like to research this stuff. I don't want to do it. And so I would say the biggest thing for me, after running around the world trying to give everybody else permission to feel, is realizing that I have to pay it forward. That I need to be that role model as best as I possibly can for my family and for my team. And so that's my work.

[00:43:19.13] PETER DEWITT: Marc, I got to tell you, I've talked to you many times, and I just want to thank you. I'm grateful for our time today.

[00:43:27.47] MARC BRACKETT: Thank you.

[00:43:28.26] PETER DEWITT: I love talking with you. I am so grateful for your work.

[00:43:34.53] MARC BRACKETT: Yeah. I'm grateful that you're doing what you're doing because you guys are running around the world trying to help make education a better place.

[00:43:42.39] PETER DEWITT: Well, thank you for being on the Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast.

[00:43:45.73] MARC BRACKETT: Thank you.

[00:43:46.57] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:43:50.13] MICHAEL NELSON: Gosh, Peter, we just had definitely a lesson in supportive leadership and how to be just a better human being. And I feel like just his phrase of what are people looking for in their Uncle Marvins, that non-judgmental, that empathetic listener. Those three pieces, just fantastic. What did you think of Marc?

[00:44:19.27] PETER DEWITT: I mean, I've always enjoyed getting to talk to Marc. And that Uncle Marvin thing-- the Uncle Marvin, I almost look at it as a call to action, just because you didn't have an Uncle Marvin, and I certainly did.

[00:44:34.97] But just because people don't have an Uncle Marvin doesn't mean you can't be one for others. And it just makes me think, I really hope that my nephews and nieces see me as an Uncle Marvin. I have to admit it's 8 o'clock at night here for me in upstate New York as we record this.

[00:44:55.57] And I'm just kind of walking away feeling very-- I'm looking for the-- I'm looking for the word because I use the How We Feel app all the time. And I feel like-- I guess the word that comes to mind right now is just I feel really grateful to have the opportunity to not just have the podcast with you, but also to be able to interview Marc. And yeah, he's just-- this is something I want to listen to a few times.

[00:45:24.83] MICHAEL NELSON: I went personal as well and my own children and nephews and nieces and the people that are important to me. And he bridged the talk about Uncle Marvin into the research. And one of the things that he said was you don't necessarily need to look at the chart all the time throughout the day. But he used the word transition.

[00:45:50.07] At key transition moments, you're coming from work into your home environment, or you're going from your home environment into work, or you're having a critical conversation with a parent in your school building or whatever. And it made me think of-- as you know I have older children. Each time I see my older children, or their children now, because you know I have four grandchildren, I need to make sure that-- those are important transition.

[00:46:20.42] So I need to go into each of those moments in check. And I don't know that I always do. And that was a really good reminder for me.

[00:46:28.04] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, that was something that I appreciated as well because I wasn't necessarily looking at it that way. I think that I'm always looking at self-regulation piece. Like, why am I feeling this way right now? And how can I move past it?

[00:46:40.51] But I also think that I've missed out. I've had a blind spot for some of those areas as well when I'm walking in. So thinking about that is really important. And this is just-- overall, it's important research. And he said it well when he said that it's been translated into 26 languages. And even though we have different cultures and different rules, it still comes down to the same things that we care about. And I think that's a universal message.

[00:47:13.53] We're always talking about the ways that-- not we, you and I. But I feel like when you watch the news, it's always focused on how we're different. And when you watch campaigns, it's always about how we're different. And I think Marc's work is really about how we're the same, and what we're really genuinely looking for in our lives as well.

[00:47:38.59] And I feel like that The Uncle Marvin piece was a real call to action for me. Like, are you making sure that you're the Uncle Marvin? So yeah, this was a great-- great interview.

[00:47:51.12] MICHAEL NELSON: I just have to wonder, tying the documentary, the documentary, how he explained that, it was just fascinating to me. And really, bottom line is, everybody they met in their 800 hours or whatever hours he said that, of filming it, they all wanted to talk. So what does that--

[00:48:09.69] PETER DEWITT: Two and a half hours, he said. Yeah.

[00:48:11.37] MICHAEL NELSON: Yeah they all want to talk and I just wonder in education, our leadership, and working with the teams in which we lead, how do we provide more and more experiences for talk?

[00:48:23.25] PETER DEWITT: It makes me think about when we do things like checking for understanding, when we're facilitating and coaching, how do we ask more questions to get people to actually share? Because people want to.

[00:48:36.76] MICHAEL NELSON: And does that translate to our students? And are we allowing them to talk?

[00:48:41.79] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. Well, Michael, been an amazing season. So thank you. This was a fantastic one.

[00:48:51.74] MICHAEL NELSON: It was.

[00:48:52.87] PETER DEWITT: To our listeners, thank you. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. And we'll probably listen to it again and again a few times. But we're always looking for your feedback.

[00:49:05.68] And just so you know, we're all very grateful for you for listening to the Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast. So Michael, until next--

[00:49:12.70] MICHAEL NELSON: Absolutely.

[00:49:13.35] PETER DEWITT: Thank you.

[00:49:14.28] MICHAEL NELSON: Thank you.

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