Learn From Mistakes and Model “Not Knowing the Answer”

Series 1 Teacher to Teacher Podcast

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[00:00:02.65] NARRATOR: Welcome to Corwin's Teacher to Teacher Podcast with Host Carol Pelletier Radford. Carol is an experienced classroom teacher, university educator, founder of mentoringinaction.com and author of four bestselling professional books for teachers. She believes the best form of professional learning happens when teachers engage in authentic conversations and share their wisdom.

[00:00:23.89] In every episode, Carol and her guests share stories about pivotal moments in their careers, successful classroom strategies, and personal actions they take to minimize stress and stay healthy. The Teacher to Teacher Podcast is a place to engage in authentic conversation and reflection with experienced educators. We hope these conversations will energize you, keep you inspired, and remind you why you chose to become a teacher.

[00:00:48.46] TORI MELLO BACHMAN: Hello. Welcome to the Teacher to Teacher Podcast. Sharing our wisdom with our host Carol Radford. I am Tori Bachman, a Corwin editor and co-organizer of this podcast, which we've created for teachers at all levels who are searching for practical useful wisdom that they can use in their classrooms.

[00:01:07.47] We believe we are all constantly learning, and we're learning together. To share their wisdom today, we have two teacher guests-- Serena Pariser and John Radosta. I'd like to introduce them to you now. Serena Pariser has been in education for 16 years. She was recognized as teacher of the year at Gompers Preparatory Academy in San Diego when she taught eighth grade.

[00:01:32.17] Serena is the bestselling author of Corwin titles-- Real Talk About Classroom Management, Real Talk About Time Management, and Answers to Your Biggest Questions About Creating a Dynamic Classroom. Serena believes a classroom should be a place where there is constant buzz of excitement in the air. Hi, Serena. Thanks for being with us today.

[00:01:52.51] SERENA PARISER: Hi, Tori.

[00:01:54.37] TORI MELLO BACHMAN: And joining us is John Radosta. A teacher featured in Carol's recent book that's titled, When I Started Teaching I Wish I Had Known-- Weekly Wisdom For Beginning Teachers. John teaches English in Milton, Massachusetts where he lives with his wife and son and a rescue dog. John has been a mentor and a mentor leader for more than 20 years. Thank you, John, for being here. It's great to see you and great to talk with you.

[00:02:19.34] JOHN RADOSTA: You too, Tori.

[00:02:20.72] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Well, thank you both-- oh, go ahead, Tori.

[00:02:23.71] TORI MELLO BACHMAN: Sorry. I was just going to mention that both of these folks-- both John and Serena bring their wisdom and ideas to us. And we're all really looking forward to hearing how they'll guide us through the first part of the school year when we're really interested in creating a community of learners and starting strong. So I'll turn it over to Carol now. And let's begin sharing teacher wisdom.

[00:02:45.37] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thanks, Tori. This is great. So I love the idea for this podcast, because I believe that teachers have the most wisdom to help other teachers. And often, the case is that we look outside of school and we gather all this information from who we call experts that have never been in the classroom.

[00:03:07.86] And researchers, and I'm a researcher myself, so I'm just saying, it's really important for us to balance the wisdom that we gather from outside with the people who have been inside. So today's guests bring lots of experience. And I've had a chance to meet them both and know them a little bit. So I'm going to push them in different directions today to get that wisdom out for our listeners.

[00:03:33.92] So before we get started, I would like you each to take two or three minutes and give a snapshot of your journey into teaching. Why did you choose this illustrious career? And what kept you in it? And how did you end up where you are right now? So let's start with John. What's going on with you?

[00:03:55.49] JOHN RADOSTA: Hi, Carol. Well, I had a roundabout way of getting into teaching. I went to college loving to read. I was an English major. And I knew for a fact that I absolutely wanted to be a lawyer. I don't know why I wanted to be a lawyer, but I did, absolutely. And then I did some work in a law office and I realized that there was an awful lot of paperwork to be done.

[00:04:17.40] So it cooled me on that. And after I did a semester abroad, I came back, realizing what I really want to do is talk about literature. And so I decided to enroll in the School of Education at BU. And so there I was a junior among freshmen. I was the old man in the class already. And I just really, really enjoyed doing it. And so I ended up getting a job at Milton. It's the only teaching job I've ever had. And I realized on day 1 that everything they told me about learning grammar, it's scary. It's hard. Stay away from it. Kids actually needed to learn it.

[00:04:59.56] And so I completely forgot everything I had learned at BU and had to build up all over again. But I love it. And you were wondering what kept me there? My colleagues, for sure. I love the students, but my colleagues are the ones who have really held me up in those dark times and celebrated with me in the really good times.

[00:05:21.45] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thanks, John. Well, I think it's really ironic that you thought being a lawyer had too much paperwork, and now you're an English teacher.

[00:05:30.39] [LAUGHTER]

[00:05:31.10] JOHN RADOSTA: Paper after paper after paper.

[00:05:33.46] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I think the teacher with the most paperwork in the district. So that's interesting. And I know you from your work as a mentor leader and the ways in which you have supported beginning teachers in your district and beyond and contributed to this book as well to just inspire other people.

[00:05:56.12] So thanks for being part of this and sharing your journey. And it's interesting. I stay in the same district too. It's like, I got a job. My path was I did want to be a teacher and it's surprising when I listen to certain guests that have been at 4, 5, 6 different schools. So Serena, why don't you share your journey and see how it compares to John?

[00:06:17.02] SERENA PARISER: Yeah. If you ask any of my teachers K through 12, I mean, I believe this, that what Serena would want to be when she gets older, they would never say teacher. Because I was such a fly under the radar student. I was like a constant B plus, sometimes A's. And not because I wasn't smart enough, it's because I wasn't really connected to traditional classrooms.

[00:06:42.85] And I didn't dislike it. I wasn't defiant. I never really got in trouble. But I never really stood out either. And so that's why I never really thought I was going to go into teaching. But when I was in college, I wanted to do a profession that helped people. And so I was like, oh, psychiatrist or a social worker or-- and then I was like, well, I don't want to get my doctorate. You have to do that for psych. And I was like, I don't know what to do. And someone told me, you should look into teaching.

[00:07:08.65] But I didn't like any content area at the time enough to want to teach it, because I thought that's what teaching a content was. If you want to be a math teacher, you have to love math and then you'll figure out how to teach it. I learned in my student teaching semester that it's more about knowing how to connect with kids and children, then loving the content at first. And now I do love the content.

[00:07:33.20] But I chose to do my student teaching experience in a boarding school in Pierre, South Dakota with native students that were sent there from like 15 or 16 different reservations. And we had to make learning fun. It was more like a home community. That's where I learned like a belonging classroom, because they lived at the school. They lived-- their dorms are right behind the actual school building.

[00:07:56.00] And that's when I realized that teaching didn't really have to look like the way I was taught growing up. Because it didn't work for me. And I didn't want students to go through my classroom numb. And so I've always worked with challenging populations in my earlier part of my career. And that's when I saw and learned how to have a dynamic classroom where like hands are shooting up in the air, students are collaborating, everyone feels like they belong.

[00:08:24.54] And so that's what got me stuck in, I would say, hooked in education when I saw that there is a different way to teach and it benefits teachers and students. So that's where my journey kind of-- I mean, teaching found me. I think I just fell into the right opportunities, because I don't think I would have stayed in education if I was at a very traditional-type classroom setting. Because it didn't work for me as a student.

[00:08:54.05] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I think it's interesting that all of your writing, which I love, by the way, and have written testimonials for you as I've reviewed your books, is about real stuff. The real teaching. The things-- and I'm not-- again, I mean, I taught in higher education as well and I do believe in a traditional approach to preparing teachers for the real classroom. But I can appreciate that your personal experience in the classroom influenced the way you are as a writer now.

[00:09:28.64] Like, your writing is influencing so many teachers. And you've been at a variety of schools. I know you're teaching totally-- so just give us a popcorn of the different places that you have found yourself teaching.

[00:09:46.64] SERENA PARISER: Well, I did some international consulting in Botswana and Kathmandu, Nepal, in Cappadocia, Turkey. And so all of those classrooms, I consulted with them because they were so traditional. The one in Botswana was through a Fulbright scholarship. And the teachers wanted to do different things that they didn't know how.

[00:10:06.33] So when I consulted, I showed them how to do like Socratic seminars, class debates, things like that. And they had some, I would say, systematic and physical issues with the class like not enough desks and chairs and things like that that we had to kind of conquer before. I could show them how to get students on their feet.

[00:10:24.14] Nepal and Turkey were like, we want to do something different and the kids are so quiet in our class and we want to break them out of their shell. So that's the type of consulting I love to do where it's like, all right. Let's get the hands raised. Let's get them smiling, let's get them excited. I did a majority of my classroom teaching at Gompers Prep in San Diego, eighth and ninth grade. I started an eighth, got like-- you know, they say promote up to like ninth.

[00:10:49.34] And then I asked the principal, can I go back down to eighth, because I want to do all these-- the ninth graders are so serious. And I was like I won't do--

[00:10:55.91] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love it.

[00:10:56.23] SERENA PARISER: --all my games and silly stuff. And then I worked in like a traditional 12th grade high school in Sweetwater Unified School District in San Diego. And here in Minneapolis, I've been kind of dabbling around the schools doing different things. And I'm in a K2 last room right now, which is crazy--

[00:11:18.64] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Go figure, Serena.

[00:11:21.08] SERENA PARISER: I know. I guess about four months and it's a K2 developmentally cognitively DCD classroom. And these are students that a lot of them are nonverbal and we do lessons every day. It's a lot of music. And it was so out of my comfort zone when I started. But I learned how to do it. And I realized that like if you're good with kids, it can relate to any grade level, any type of classroom. So it's been--

[00:11:51.67] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And adults. The consulting piece. What you're doing with your students, in all of these varied worldwide situations, do you find that it's the same that you want to use those techniques of engagement with adults professional development as well?

[00:12:09.05] SERENA PARISER: I am actually doing that tomorrow. This summer, I'm working for a program called Breakthrough and I'm an instructional coach. So I'm training aspire teachers. Like young, high school seniors, college freshmen, before they go in, and I'm going to be coaching them and was making my PD, and you know, sometimes when I speak at conferences, it's very much like lecture speak a little bit, because it's like 100 or 200 people.

[00:12:31.34] And I thought, oh, my gosh. A light bulb went off when I was driving. And I was like, I need to do this like a lesson. So we have turn in talks, we have movement activities, we have-- and it was so much more-- not that I don't love speaking, but it was so much more fun. To make that lesson, it was just flowing out of me. And was like, all right. How do we do this? Because they're going to be working with middle school students.

[00:12:52.38] So I'm going to give them adult teacher content but in a middle school style delivery. So yeah.

[00:12:57.65] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that.

[00:12:58.25] SERENA PARISER: Absolutely.

[00:12:58.54] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that. Well, we as adults-- it's adult development. We want our minds to engage as well. John, what are you-- you're hearing-- you're meeting Serena for the first time. This podcast is called Teacher to Teacher. React. What do you think about her story or what she's saying. What comes to mind?

[00:13:15.55] JOHN RADOSTA: Well, first of all, I wish I had been to all of those different places.

[00:13:18.54] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that.

[00:13:22.31] JOHN RADOSTA: But I loved the idea of trying all of those different kinds of tactics. I have to admit, I am a pretty traditional teacher myself. So you're already inspiring me to try some new things next year.

[00:13:36.57] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And I think that's why we're doing this. This is wisdom to-- it doesn't have to just be aspiring teachers. We learn from each other how many years of teaching. In fact, I was talking to another teacher who had just gotten When I Started Teaching book in the mail. And the teacher had been teaching for 18 years. And he's like, oh, my God. I'm looking through this, because now I'm going to try some of these next fall.

[00:14:00.45] So we tend to just funnel the good ideas for the aspiring teachers in the first three-year teachers so they can be successful. But it's for us too, because why not try another way of just the turn and talk. And John, you've been successful being-- there's nothing wrong with being a traditional teacher.

[00:14:22.47] JOHN RADOSTA: No. But it's good to try new things too.

[00:14:24.54] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Exactly.

[00:14:25.01] JOHN RADOSTA: And that's why I love mentoring. Because I'm working with brand new teachers who are just coming out of school. And they have all kinds of new ideas that they can share.

[00:14:35.18] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So this podcast is about wisdom. And I'd like to unpack some wisdom that each of you bring from your experience wherever it is through a story. Because I believe our stories and taking time to reflect and look back and pull out a memory where we developed as a teacher. Because we learn from our mistakes and from our successes too.

[00:15:02.61] So John, would you share a story of-- a defining moment in your career when you learned something from your students or from being a teacher. What will you shared with us today?

[00:15:18.63] JOHN RADOSTA: Well, it's kind of a painful story for me. And it's right from the very beginning of my teaching career. Actually, I think it was from my student teaching. But I have carried this lesson with me every single day of my teaching career. I was brand new in the classroom. I'd probably been there a couple of weeks. And I was still terrified.

[00:15:40.98] And there was this one girl in the class, it was a tenth grade class, and her name was April. And she was very active in class, she always had something to say. She had a lot to say and it was really great stuff. She spoke all the time. She was my go-to person. And we were doing Shakespeare. And somebody asked a question about a word, and I explained it but I explained it entirely wrong.

[00:16:09.68] I confused it with a different word entirely, and I just explained it like I knew, because oh, no. I'm the expert here in the room. And April corrected me. And I was terrified that this student knew more than I did. And I was going to lose all the respect that I had in the class. And I couldn't have that.

[00:16:34.85] So I argued with her and forced her to realize that I was right and she was wrong. It was the worst thing I have ever done in class. I think it's one of the worst things you can do in a classroom. And I watched her eyes just die. And she never again said a word. It was horrible. And as a matter of fact, about three or four years later, I passed her at the bus stop and I know she recognized me, because as soon as her eyes lit on me, she just turned and walked away.

[00:17:08.94] It was awful. And I've never ever forgotten the idea that I don't have to be right all the time. And that students are smart. And it's great to show that you make a mistake. When a student correct you, that means that they're paying attention, that means that they have expertise, that means that they feel comfortable in class that they can speak up.

[00:17:32.29] And so I've always tried to foster that in class. I give extra points sometimes, if they correct me. Or at least I say, yes, I'm glad you know than I do. I wish I could bump into her at a bus stop one more time and apologize. Because that's pretty much driven me my entire career.

[00:17:53.64] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you, John. I think it's really hard for us to not be perfect as teachers, because we go into the profession for many different reasons. But your story always, I've heard it, and it touches my heart, because it's when we're the most vulnerable. And our students are always watching us. And I'm so grateful that you took the time to pull that memory out and be honest with our listeners about that we do make mistakes, but that you used it to fuel another way of being a more effective teacher.

[00:18:38.23] And I think April knows like we've made it-- you're forgiven as a beginning teacher. And moving on, well, what do you think, Serena, hearing that story for the first time?

[00:18:52.65] SERENA PARISER: Well I have like a pit in my stomach after hearing that, because I'm thinking, when you-- that's exactly how I felt the first couple of years. I was so into like, OK. The spelling-- I'm English. And I was always into like, OK. This spelling list. Do I know what every word means? What if I don't know what one of these words means?

[00:19:11.79] And you learn all the content after a few years and you become a master of it. But it's about-- in the beginning, it was really about keeping my ego. And that was one of-- I have many stories about that. And I'm so not like that now. But I did that to a few students in the beginning. And that's why it pained me to hear that, because it reminded me of times when I had done it too. And teaching so much more than that. Like no one wins when you do that, not even yourself.

[00:19:42.58] JOHN RADOSTA: Absolutely.

[00:19:43.00] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So why do we do that? I mean, well, I think as you're talking, I'm remembering, again, first year of teaching when you're writing and I think I spelled the word incorrectly--

[00:19:56.12] SERENA PARISER: Yeah.

[00:19:56.97] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: --just on the board. And wanting-- I don't remember how I resolved it. But I do remember a student correcting it. So what makes us think upfront that we have to be that right out of the gate? Is there something we can do differently that doesn't bring the next generation feeling that?

[00:20:21.34] SERENA PARISER: Yeah. I think that when we're students, especially like, I don't know. Up until maybe like ninth, 10th grade, teachers were like, these untouchable people on pedestals in front of the class, like that's the way I was taught. There wasn't a lot of-- that's how traditional schooling is. And you see all like the cartoon drawings of like the Charlie Brown teacher. And that's the impression we got of teachers.

[00:20:45.61] We didn't really get that close to our teachers. And I mean, I'm in my 40s. And so you know we didn't-- I don't think-- teaching was like-- so when we go into the profession and then go into that role ourselves, it's like almost like a-- what's imposter syndrome? A lot of students just have that like, how am I going to be that person that I looked up to or that knew everything? And so when we make a mistake, I think it's terrifying that they might see through us.

[00:21:14.34] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes. And I think that's why the mentoring programs and that's why I dedicated a lot of my focus early on in my career to mentoring, but I think you're bringing forward a vulnerability and an ego issue and that perfection that's underneath the traditional teacher preparation, which is learning the content, learning the pedagogy, which I spent a lot of time teaching, which I think is important.

[00:21:45.40] It's what you're talking about, Serena. It's engaging. And even John, traditional teacher-- I had traditional teachers that taught in rows and I totally loved and respected them. And they didn't do any of the activities that I did. So because I had a relationship with them somehow or some respect.

[00:22:02.40] So this wisdom that we're talking about today brings the teacher forward as a whole human being and not just the deliverer of content and exciting pedagogy, which I believe in and all of that. So I thank you for bringing this forward, John, because I think it's something that drove you in a good way to now have relationship with students right up front so teachers at the beginning of the school year could say that. Just like, hey, I'm going to be making mistakes. It's part of the intro.

[00:22:40.64] JOHN RADOSTA: Exactly.

[00:22:41.41] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And like, you see me make a mistake, let me know and let's fix it together. How do you do that now? How do you--

[00:22:48.68] JOHN RADOSTA: Well, I first had to realize that it wasn't about delivering content. That especially now that you can Wikipedia everything, it's not about making sure that you're an expert in things. It's about learning how to learn. And I didn't know that then. And so that's part of the modeling. My teachers, as Serena said, had been those people on a pedestal, and they seemed to know everything.

[00:23:16.40] But what we're trying to do is teach kids how to learn, because the information that they have, like who cares who the main character of A tale of Two Cities is 10 years from now? But on the other hand, you need to know how to pull that information out of a chunk of text. So I teach them that learning is a journey that we all make mistakes.

[00:23:36.83] And it gives them a chance to be novices. They don't have to be perfect experts right out of the gate. And so encourage them to make mistakes, because that means you're taking a risk. And that's how you learn. I tell them now, that if you're going to make a mistake, do it gloriously. Just like get up there and say it. And we'll worry about fixing it later.

[00:24:00.29] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that. Thank you. So Serena, do you have something like that? Like a memory from a teaching experience that you can share with us that's given you some wisdom?

[00:24:10.88] SERENA PARISER: Yeah. And it relates to John's on a couple different levels. But there's this student, Kyle, I talk about in one of my books. Because this memory just taught me so much. And it was like John's painful when it was happening. But what happened was, there was this time I was covering a colleague's class when I taught eighth grade and a seventh grade science teacher just needed to go to some sort of meeting and she had to step out.

[00:24:38.72] So she took attendance, she had the work on the desk. The class was like, not that it's great. But they were completely silent engaged. And she made it like an easier coverage activity. And she's like, I'll be gone for about 30 minutes. I'm sitting at the desk thinking, well, they're going to behave for me, because I'm an eighth grade teacher.

[00:24:56.27] They know, I'm the big dog coming in. And most of them were this. Was like my fourth or fifth year teaching. And this one boy, Kyle, gets up out of his seat-- oh, wait. No. I had to take attendance. That's why. He gets up out of his seat, and he literally walks out the door. And in San Diego, schools, there's no hallways. So he's outside in a campus. And this is a safety issue. He's a seventh grade boy. What would he be like 12.

[00:25:21.51] And so I looked-- I didn't say anything, because I didn't know his name yet. And I looked at the class and they go, oh, yeah, Kyle. He does that. And so as he's walking out the door, he spits a loogie literally in the doorway of the classroom, turns around, and goes I have a 504 plan. Look it up, I get breaks. And was like, should I call security just to bring them back or let them know there's a boy--

[00:25:46.77] He didn't have a pass or anything. And the school I worked at was very big on-- students need to very meticulous about how they leave the classroom for safety reasons and a lot of other reasons. He comes back and I'm thinking, I don't think I want to mess with this child. I don't think it's going to do any good. So he's doing a lot of stuff during that class. And so I wipe my hands of it, the teacher comes back. We all leave, we move on.

[00:26:12.03] Next year, mind you I'm teaching eighth grade, the first day of school, period 3. I know he was period 3. He walks into my classroom. He didn't remember me. But I remember him. And he puts his feet up, literally puts his feet up on the desk. I mean, middle school is the first day. They're pretty quiet. They don't know what's going on. He puts his hands behind his back and he goes, so what are we learning today? Teach day 1. And I'm thinking, oh my goodness--

[00:26:39.87] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: God. What are you going to do?

[00:26:41.91] SERENA PARISER: And it's also the period before lunch. There were so many factors. He was very well known around school. Everyone knew him. And so Kyle taught me about connecting kids. Because he was the first student that I used this theory on and it worked.

[00:26:59.88] So we had independent reading time every day. It was a school-wide thing. So for 20 minutes, they used to call it SSR. It was independent reading. I don't know if they still do it. But 20 minutes, every student was reading a book or an article or something like that. And so during this time, I was really proud of myself, because I put on my N.E.M. music. And the students, I got-- to get an eighth grade class quiet and reading for 20 minutes, I was conferencing with them. That was a big feat in itself.

[00:27:26.52] Period 3, period 1 did it, period 2 did it, period 4 did it, period 6 did it, period 3, Kyle was in there. During reading time, not only did he not attempt to have any reading material on his desk, he would sing. But sing like on the top of his lungs. Like Pump Up the Jam. Like, in the middle of-- he'd wait like 10 minutes and then everyone would get thrown off.

[00:27:48.84] So this happened daily. And you know when students get in the habit of doing things, it's like a daily thing. So I learned two things about this. One, the class didn't really think it was funny anymore. Because they wanted to have like a functioning classroom. They started getting annoyed with him, which made him feel not-- he didn't belong to our classroom. And that started to make it worse.

[00:28:11.26] So I realized that I needed to somehow step in and get Kyle to read, because he needed to feel like a part of the class. Another layer to this is I realized Kyle has no reason to read for me. He doesn't like reading, his reading level was low, and he just didn't like reading. So this is when I realized that I need to do some more work.

[00:28:33.13] So I used to pull-- I did the whole Kyle, if you don't read, blah, blah, blah. Kyle, if you don't read-- and consequences didn't work for him. My classroom consequences. So one day, I noticed Kyle carried a skateboard into my class every day, which I don't know how he got through our dean's office. He walked by like high five the dean with a skateboard in his hand and brought it to school, because he didn't want anyone messing with his skateboard.

[00:28:56.97] He wasn't really a stickler for rules. And he was very good at sweet talking his way around them. I started thinking, OK. Kyle likes skateboarding. This is how I'm going to connect with him. So I started asking him questions about skateboarding. I started googling things like what are some skateboarding trick names and things like that.

[00:29:14.71] And so I would start the timer, the students would read, and I would pull Kyle up to my desk and just talk. Not like, why aren't you reading? Not that talk more like, oh, you like to skateboard. Oh, I have a friend that skateboards. Do you know how to do? He said he did like an ollie or very like conversational like you would at a dinner party or something.

[00:29:33.99] And Kyle opened up and he told me all about skateboarding. He showed me a picture of him doing-- I don't know what the name of the trick is. I did at the time, and he was really good. So after about two days of doing this, I printed out an article of a pros and cons for skateboarding on college campuses. I think that's what it was.

[00:29:52.44] And Kyle started to read. And the class loved it. And then the next day I would have an article on the desk. And then the next day maybe I'll pull them up for conversation, always around skateboarding. And after a while, Kyle started bringing books to class. And what I realized from doing this is that not only did he feel like he belonged to the classroom, because we all know Maslow's before Bloom's.

[00:30:17.06] So he was learning, because his belonging needs were being met. He was a connection kid, which means he had to know that I liked him before he would ever listen to me or learn from me. And since Kyle, I've had so many connection kids that do work in my classroom. And other teachers will, sometimes, be like how do-- why-- how-- they don't-- and I'd be like-- and I explain the connection kid theory.

[00:30:45.40] And it takes, like John said, dropping your ego. Like, oh, they won't listen to me. They don't want to learn. That wasn't the case. Kyle didn't know that I was really interested in him. And the way you spot connection kids, because they're probably in every single one of your classrooms, is there's two things.

[00:31:00.92] One if you have a sub-covering your class, they're probably going to misbehave. And that's because they don't know that adult. They have no reason to do that work, unless they really love what they're doing. But that's probably a connection kid. And number 2, they're probably going to act out in some way earlier than the other kids or students in your classroom.

[00:31:21.10] Acting out can be shutting down, like heads just literally on the desk. That happens in high school a lot with connection kids. They're just shut down. They're just not listening to you. They could be defiant before other students or they could just be not doing work. So those are connection kids. Connection kids will be some of your best students once they know that you have an interest in them. Then they'll have an interest in your content for you.

[00:31:48.01] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So you define the connection kid. You made up that term, or is that from someone that you--

[00:31:53.12] SERENA PARISER: That's something I read an article somewhere.

[00:31:55.33] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: You read. Yeah. I like that.

[00:31:55.47] SERENA PARISER: And they like that they said it, and I was like that pertains to teaching as well. You say connection student, you can say connection child. A lot of children are like this.

[00:32:04.84] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right. So how to connect. So our listeners, this is a great-- and it works I think K-12, pre-K, adults. Someone once said to me, be interested not interesting.

[00:32:22.03] SERENA PARISER: Yeah.

[00:32:22.78] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So when you're interested in anything-- it could be with an adult or the connection kid, instead of trying to be that teacher that's interesting to get everybody's attention, John, what's your reaction to Serena's story?

[00:32:38.58] JOHN RADOSTA: Oh. I've known a lot of those connection kids, that's for sure.

[00:32:42.20] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And you've connected. You've connected.

[00:32:44.03] JOHN RADOSTA: With some of them.

[00:32:44.78] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah. With some. Yeah.

[00:32:46.97] JOHN RADOSTA: I've noticed among my colleagues that everyone has something that one kid, because we have lots of those one kids.

[00:32:56.78] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah.

[00:32:57.46] JOHN RADOSTA: They always find an adult. Some of them have been with me, some of them have been with other teachers. I mean, it's great that I think in my school that every one of those kids is going to find someone. It won't always be the same teacher, but they're going to find someone. And we work really hard to bring that about.

[00:33:17.21] But Serena's right. If they don't know you or don't like you, then they will do absolutely nothing. And that's why it's good to, sometimes, go and observe other classes, especially if you're having trouble with a student. And just looking at how other teachers make those connections will help you, for sure.

[00:33:37.58] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thanks for-- so as you're telling the story, I had-- so my last year before I went into higher Ed, I had a student called Jermaine. And in my head, I'm not happy I did this. But it was Jermaine the pain. Because every single day-- and that's just-- I would say, oh, my God. I hope he's absent.

[00:34:00.53] And I'm an experienced teacher at this point. So it isn't just beginning teacher issue. It could be-- and I feel like I'm a good connector. But Jermaine just wanted to talk all day long. It was just-- and I couldn't. I didn't know what to do. So finally, I remember someone sharing-- well, he likes to talk and I'm like, you know what? I'm going to have him do the opening of class every day.

[00:34:26.34] I don't even know where the insight came from. But I had a director's chair, and he sat in the director's chair every morning, because what Serena's saying, I think is really important at the beginning of the year. The students will look to us how we respond to the student that is misbehaving.

[00:34:47.69] The way we treat them, they can see. So I was very conscious that I wanted him to belong in the class. And when I praised him for opening the class every day, it was awesome. And he became the leader of the class. He started, he took the attendance. And I got to talk to students individually.

[00:35:11.52] So the connections on all of us are different for every child, obviously. But thank you for bringing that to our attention, because I think it's really an important one about belonging and creating a community of learners. All right. We're going to wind down a little bit. What I'd like to close the podcast with are two areas that teachers, listeners, want some practical.

[00:35:36.81] Like, what can I do in my classroom tomorrow? So we've had our stories, we've got our wisdom. And John, do you have something that people can just take away that you've done? Come on, you've been teaching for all these years. What's a magic bullet that you use around management or building community that's worked for you?

[00:35:56.64] JOHN RADOSTA: Well, I think one of the main things is to try to make those connections with the whole class. So every day in class, I start with just hey, what's new? What are some celebrations? What's some news? I used to know older teachers who did that. And I could never understand, how can you lose 5 or 10 minutes of class time? Oh, no. We need to do the content.

[00:36:21.21] But they were always the most popular teachers. And I finally learned to do it. And you learn so much about the students. And they celebrate each other. And they're hearing about the new boys volleyball team. And hey, I think I'll go to that game and all kinds of things like that. And you find out what students' hobbies are. And you see the kids have connections. So just those few minutes, you'll get to the content later.

[00:36:50.70] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: All right. It's worth it. Well, because they're going to listen if they know who you are and that you care. Serena, what's your practical take away that teachers could do in the classroom tomorrow?

[00:37:02.99] SERENA PARISER: Yeah. Before I share mine, John, that's so interesting you say that. Because there's a second grade teacher across the hall that does that. We know about morning meetings where there's like three step degree, and it's a structured-- she pulls it-- I went to observe her class and she pulled her students up to a circle like a cluster, but they were in a circle.

[00:37:23.01] And was like, oh, she's going to do a morning meeting. Cool. And then no. She just talked to them like anyone have anyone to share. And of course, their second grade, they all have like, I ate a baloney sandwich or just or like, I got a dog. And her classroom vibe is so much different than when they are in any other thing, because she actually talks to-- and then she shares that like, oh, guys. I went to the lake this--

[00:37:44.16] And then they'll ask questions. And it's like a good 10 minutes. She does it. And at first, I was like, it's like a lot of learning time. But her students learn so much more. And it's a daily practice. So glad to hear it's happening other places. Mine is more about setting yourself up on the right foot and empowering your students in the beginning of the class.

[00:38:05.62] So the first 5 or 10 minutes, most teachers have-- and it's not every day, sometimes there's special days. But most days, the first five minutes, they have to do the same-- let's say three or four things. Like, go to your seat. Maybe take out your notebook, take out your homework if you gave homework. Maybe start reading and maybe answering a question. It's probably a mishmash of those.

[00:38:27.27] And I found that when I started doing this in year 3 and it was transformative, when I put those steps on a slide with a smiley face and with a greeting that personalized each class, like, good morning period 4. Smiley face. It might be 7:00 in the morning. Project it. Have it projected when they come in.

[00:38:48.06] And when a student isn't doing the steps, you just point, right? You're not angry, you're not frustrated, you're probably answering an email or taking attendance or something like that or someone at the office just called. Because if you don't do that, there will be a student that says, wait. What are we doing? Huh? And then having to repeat yourself like a broken record, you're starting out with a frustrated tone, right?

[00:39:16.21] When I taught 10th grade summer school, these are students going into 11th grade. They did three things when they came in. They got their notebook, which we left in the class, they answered a question, and they did like one other thing. Even up to the last day of summer school, there were some students that were sitting there like zombies in the morning.

[00:39:34.06] And if didn't have-- they would read the thing. If I didn't have that projected up there, they wouldn't know what to do. Maybe they're tired, maybe they just broke up with their girlfriend or boyfriend the night before, maybe they lost a pet, maybe they didn't eat breakfast. Maybe they just were up too late playing video games and their mind's not on.

[00:39:51.53] But the point is, make it easier for yourself. Having that slide and then when every class comes and you just change, period 2, change it to period 3, change it to period 4. It empowers the students because they were like, oh, we can do what we need to do without the teacher having to tell us. Because you want to make them as independent as possible.

[00:40:10.29] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah. I love that. I love that image. Because what you're saying-- and I've heard that before, the routines.

[00:40:16.78] SERENA PARISER: Yeah.

[00:40:17.19] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: But what you're saying that I want to underscore is the image up on the screen so you don't have to talk or wherever you put the image here on the sticky-- whatever. Yes.

[00:40:29.24] SERENA PARISER: And first of all, the students are so-- if the students are young where they can't read, put images. Put a picture of--

[00:40:35.90] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.

[00:40:36.36] SERENA PARISER: A picture of--

[00:40:37.47] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So they know.

[00:40:37.85] SERENA PARISER: Pictures of what they have to do. And I once thought like, how am I going to do that? Because I need my computer to take attendance. So you just split the screen and then you just throw that up there. And then you're doing whatever teacher stuff you have to do. That's like a teacher nitty-gritty logistics thing.

[00:40:54.16] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love it. That's what people want. That's what our listeners are looking for. And so I want you each to share what you do outside of school that keeps you vibrant, balanced, whatever. Because we don't want to be teachers-- we're whole people now. Whole teacher. So John, what do you do to keep yourself healthy?

[00:41:20.35] JOHN RADOSTA: I have taken up a lot more walking lately. I live at the top of a hill. So I'm making that hill work for me. So I take a couple of laps around the block, which really gets cardio up.

[00:41:34.34] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love it. And what are you doing, Serena?

[00:41:36.89] SERENA PARISER: Well, during the school year, I always try to be part of a like social sports league, because it's like once a week. And it's like softball or something like that, because it's something that forces you to unplug. So most recently, I was part of an indoor cornhole league. And so no one's checking their phones. It's the culture of these leagues.

[00:41:56.69] And so you know it's social. I'm not talking about the classroom so much, I'm not hanging out with teachers. No offense, but you got to separate--

[00:42:04.67] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes. Yes. Yes.

[00:42:06.29] SERENA PARISER: And more importantly-- well, not really more importantly, but outside of the school year when we have these breaks, I usually backpack to international countries. And that really gets me away from just thinking about the classroom or what I'm going to do next year, because you're in a whole different environment. I've done like 19 different countries, and when I say backpack, I'm strapping a backpack on my back. And I'm--

[00:42:28.70] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, my God.

[00:42:29.39] SERENA PARISER: I've kind of graduated from hostels, but I'm not-- I'll go back to a hostel, and I go-- I've been to like Australia, Nepal, India, Mexico, Guatemala, most recently Thailand, Vietnam, Costa Rica, I mean, the list can go on, but I'm such a better teacher when I come back, because I saw a whole different side of life. I fed my passion. I'm not resentful. I have gratitude that I can do it. And it's just everything.

[00:42:56.96] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: It's making you-- that whole person, that passion that you have, you bring into the classroom. And then your students see that as well. I want to give-- John, what did it feel like to have your-- have you written a book, or is this your first publication in this book? Your story being published?

[00:43:15.85] JOHN RADOSTA: Actually outside of teaching, I have a secret life as a dark crime novelist.

[00:43:22.19] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Whoa. I don't think you told me that before. So how do we follow you and read dark crime, or are you not going to tell us?

[00:43:33.35] JOHN RADOSTA: Well, I have a pseudonym, because I don't want my students reading what I write.

[00:43:37.07] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: OK. OK.

[00:43:38.08] SERENA PARISER: Oh.

[00:43:39.56] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: We'll get that info later then.

[00:43:41.90] JOHN RADOSTA: OK. Absolutely.

[00:43:42.62] SERENA PARISER: You know now they're going to be looking.

[00:43:44.24] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, so you are. Right? Everybody's going to be looking. So there you go with your writing. But how did it feel to have your vulnerable story published in this book?

[00:43:52.78] JOHN RADOSTA: Well, it was a little scary to be honest. I mean, it's a story about being vulnerable, but now everybody knows. But I think it's important, because everyone needs to listen to that kind of thing and to know it's OK to make a mistake.

[00:44:07.41] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you for being brave, and allowing that to be published and shared worldwide, internationally. We may have Serena bringing these books on backpack trips all over the--

[00:44:18.19] SERENA PARISER: Yeah.

[00:44:18.62] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: --the world, right?

[00:44:20.30] JOHN RADOSTA: They're small and easy to carry.

[00:44:22.44] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.

[00:44:22.74] SERENA PARISER: Oh, good.

[00:44:24.07] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Serena is in the book as well. So she has multiple books, and you have-- you are also featured in. When I started teaching, I wish I had known. But I'd like you to give a shout out to-- you've written multiple books for Corwin, which book do you want to promote here or share with our audience that you think relates to this teacher to teacher idea?

[00:44:48.52] SERENA PARISER: Well, probably the most-- well, we're working on a second edition to the first book, which was a best seller. Everyone wants to learn about classroom management. When do-- all you have to do is why don't want to water? When you have classroom management in any session in a conference, I've had people like not even able to have like floor space, but they're like peeking their heads into the door.

[00:45:09.53] Because everyone wants to get better at classroom management. And that's what the first book was. But the latest book we did is specifically for newer teachers, and it's a part of a series. It's 5 to thrive answers to your biggest questions about creating a dynamic classroom. It was just published-- I think it was last August, 2022.

[00:45:29.57] And it's for newer teachers or teachers looking to refine their teaching practices. So every question is answered in one page or two pages, and it's all about not like a survival God. It's a dynamic classroom. The type of classroom I was talking about in the beginning of this podcast that I learned how to create.

[00:45:49.83] And so we just sat down and said, OK. How did these things come about into a dynamic classroom? And it's a fast, easy read. So if you have a question about something, you just go to the index and then seating charts. Behavior management, connection with kids, anything like that. Even like colleague conflict, because no one taught me how to navigate that one when it happened.

[00:46:11.70] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: This sounds perfect, John, for the mentoring program and your work with--

[00:46:15.20] JOHN RADOSTA: Absolutely. I'm definitely going to look into that.

[00:46:16.04] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: --with the beginning teachers. So we're going to make sure Corwin sends John a copy of that book. How does that sound, right? And we will keep sharing our wisdom through writing and talking and podcasts like teachers' voices are not going to be silenced. So this commitment to this Teacher to Teacher Podcast, that's what I'm committed to, is selecting guests that have been in the classroom, that are committed to being whole teachers and sharing that with others. So thank you both.

[00:46:47.00] So final question is based on a book by Dick Elmore-- a professor at Harvard who wrote a book called I Used to Think and Now I Think, and he has an article that I think you both enjoy if you want to search that out. But as we close down this session, I think our listeners need to understand we change over time. We learn things. And part of really being wise is knowing when to shift our ideas and move into another paradigm. So John, what did you use to think, and now what do you think?

[00:47:26.37] JOHN RADOSTA: Well, this goes along with both my story and Serena's, I think. I used to think that I had to be the absolute expert of everything in class, but now I know that everyone has something to contribute. And when you let students show off what they know, then they get more excited about learning even more. And so it makes for a much better relationship. And that makes for much better learning.

[00:47:51.70] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you, John. Serena?

[00:47:54.04] SERENA PARISER: Yeah. This relates to John's as well. I used to think I was expected to just have a quiet classroom. And when I had a silent classroom, even more learning was happening. And now I think-- and I'm confident that I know, that there are multiple ways to learn. And noise in a classroom isn't always a bad thing. People learn in different ways and learning can be a social activity.

[00:48:19.14] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And you're very social, Serena. So I love that that is your shift. And it fits more with your authentic self. You both have been a delight to talk with and have this really important conversation. I hope our listeners have really enjoyed it. And I'm going to turn it over to Tori to get her reaction to this fabulous session.

[00:48:47.24] TORI MELLO BACHMAN: I love this session actually. Thank you both so much. I actually-- John, I just wrote on a index card on my desk, if you're going to make a mistake, make it gloriously, because I really-- your story really touched me. And I'll repeat what Carol said, really vulnerable moment that seems like it's shaped you in a really profound way.

[00:49:13.90] But I'm sure that most of the people listening could absolutely relate to that, because many of us grew up thinking that making a mistake was a bad thing, but learning from the mistakes is really the key. And I heard that from both of you today. And I appreciate that just reminder. And I'm sure our listeners will appreciate that too.

[00:49:36.66] Serena, I really, really appreciate your explanation and conversation around the connection kids. I think that's a really strong thing for all of us to keep in mind. And it seems kind of-- as I was listening to you, I was thinking, this seems really pretty common sense. But I bet it's not to understand and have that empathy for a child who's acting out, and to not take it personally and really try to interact and know that child will make such a huge difference.

[00:50:09.32] So I appreciate that you brought that out for all of us today. And I loved both of your practical tips for the classroom starting the morning in a way that can create the energy that you want in your classroom. I thought that was also really helpful. So thanks so much. It was a great conversation. And Carol, thank you too--

[00:50:33.58] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you, Tori.

[00:50:34.56] TORI MELLO BACHMAN: --for leading us through so nicely.

[00:50:36.28] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. And thank you both, again, for sharing your wisdom and giving our listeners some practical tips and some philosophical grounding to start off the school year in an inspired way. So thanks, everyone, for joining us. And we will see you next time on our next episode.

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[00:51:00.05] NARRATOR: Thanks, everyone, for joining today's Teacher to Teacher conversation. We hope this time together energized you, inspired you, and reminded you why you chose to become a teacher. You can purchase any of Carol's books and any books mentioned in the podcast online at www.corwin.com.

[00:51:16.72] Please leave a review, and share this podcast with your colleagues. Thank you for listening to the Corwin Teacher to Teacher Podcast-- a place to share teacher wisdom and engage in authentic conversations with experienced educators.

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