Focus on the Human Data
Guest(s): Carol Pelletier Radford, Chase Orton and Mia Pumo
Date: 10/18/2023
Run time: 48:17
Season 1, Episode 10
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Episode Audio
Teacher to Teacher Podcast Series 1
[00:00:03.07] SPEAKER 1: Welcome to Corwin's Teacher to Teacher podcast with
host Carol Pelletier Radford. Carol is an experienced classroom teacher,
university educator, founder of Mentoring in Action.com, and author of four
bestselling professional books for teachers. She believes the best form of
professional learning happens when teachers engage in authentic conversations
and share their wisdom. In every episode, Carrol and her guests share stories
about pivotal moments in their careers, successful classroom strategies, and
personal actions they take to minimize stress and stay healthy.
[00:00:34.88] The Teacher to Teacher podcast is a place to engage in
authentic conversation and reflection with experienced educators. We hope these
conversations will energize you, keep you inspired, and remind you why you
chose to become a teacher.
[00:00:49.12] TORI BACHMAN: Hello, welcome to the Teacher to Teacher
podcast, sharing our wisdom with our host Carol Radford. I am Tori Bachman, a
Corwin editor and co-organizer of this podcast, which we've created for
teachers at all levels who are searching for practical wisdom that they can use
in their classrooms. We believe we're all constantly learning, and we're
learning together. To share their wisdom today, we have two fabulous teacher
guests, Chase Orton and Mia Pumo.
[00:01:17.57] I'll introduce them both to you now. Chase Orton was a high
school math Chase for 12 years. In 2012, he ventured out as an independent
collaborator for districts and nonprofits, facilitating workshops, coaching
teachers and writing math curriculum. As an accomplished facilitator of lesson
study for K-12 math teachers, Chase currently invests his professional time
partnering with districts that are interested in taking a teacher-centered, teacher-directed
approach to professional development.
[00:01:48.59] Chase's book, The Imperfect and Unfinished Math Teacher, A
Journey to Reclaim Control of our Professional Development, has been a key book
in the Corwin math lineup since it was published in February of 2022. You can
find Chase online at chaseorton.com. That's
"c-h-a-s-e-o-r-t-o-n.com." or on social media
"@mathgeek76."
[00:02:14.11] Hey, Chase. Thank you for being here with us.
[00:02:17.06] CHASE ORTON: Thanks for having me.
[00:02:19.51] TORI BACHMAN: And Mia Pumo is a program manager at Ed
Direction, working across the country with education leaders to create
environments where educators and students can thrive. Mia is a former
elementary teacher and instructional coach, and she's the author of the book
What Are You Craving? Designing the Life You Were Meant to Live, which is
published by Balboa Press and available through Amazon and other retailers. You
can find Mia online at eddirection.org. And that's spelled "e-d-direction.org."
And Mia is on social media @mpeacepumo.
[00:02:56.74] Mia is also one of the educators who's featured in Carol's
recent book, When I Started Teaching I wish I Had Known, Weekly Wisdom for
Beginning Teachers. Hi, Mia. We're so happy that you're here.
[00:03:08.75] MIA PUMO: Hi, Tori. Thanks for having me.
[00:03:11.38] TORI BACHMAN: And I am going to turn this over to Carol now
for this conversation that we've been looking forward to for quite a while.
[00:03:17.86] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Hi, everyone. It's nice to be here
and to talk with you, Chase and Mia, and to actually highlight how important it
is to have teacher wisdom and teacher-centered practices and perspectives
highlighted on this Teacher to Teacher podcast. Now, I know in your introductions
that you both have been in the classroom, and now you've dedicated your lives
and careers to supporting teachers through professional development. So our
listeners-- let's share with our listeners your journeys into teaching, why you
decided to become teachers, and then how you shifted into this new commitment
to actually helping teachers thrive in different ways, which took you out of
the classroom.
[00:04:09.05] So Mia, let's start with you. Share your journey. Did you
always want to become a teacher, which is story?
[00:04:17.80] MIA PUMO: I did not know that I wanted to be a teacher, but I
think it was always in there deep down. But I majored in radio, television, and
film in my undergraduate program, and I had a career in television advertising.
And I was just not fulfilled, not happy, and I knew that was not something I
wanted to do the rest of my life. So I started searching, and I had a friend
who had become a teacher. I went to visit her classroom one day. Spent the day
there and just fell in love, and was like, this is it. This is what I'm meant
to do. So I got my master's in elementary education and took off and absolutely
loved my work and just couldn't wait to get out of bed every morning to go to
work. Even though my salary was cut in half, my joy was more than doubled. So
totally the right decision for me.
[00:05:08.05] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And then you shifted. Then what drew
you-- how did you follow your heart in a different direction to land you where
you are now?
[00:05:17.47] MIA PUMO: Yeah. So I taught elementary school for 17 years,
and I knew I was ready to do something else, but I wasn't sure exactly what
that was. So again, I started searching, and that's when I found instructional
coaching. I had my administrative degree. I had served as an administrator, and
I just knew there was something else. I almost became a-- well, I did. I became
a life coach. And I thought that was the direction I was going, and I wrote
that book you mentioned in the intro.
[00:05:49.86] But something kept saying, you're supposed to work with
educators. You're supposed to continue to work with teachers, and I fought it
for a while. I was like, no, no, no, I'm moving in a different direction, but
the universe has other plans. And so I-- everything I was learning in my life
coaching work, I realized could also be used in education environments. And so
I've learned how to weave all of that learning into my work with educators, and
now that's what I do.
[00:06:20.03] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that. And I know that you and
I have met in person, and we've shared some similar interests. And I believe
the mission that you just laid out to support teachers in being the best they
can be in the classroom does-- it fills that gap that we're all looking for right
now. And that is that wisdom of successful teachers, and you didn't leave
because you were unhappy. It sounds like you left because you were searching
for other ways to contribute.
[00:06:51.98] So, Chase, is your story similar to Mia's or very different
or-- tell me, when did you decide to become a teacher?
[00:07:03.32] CHASE ORTON: My teaching journey began as a child. I was a
military brat growing up, and my mom was in the Air Force and went to school
all over the States and in Europe. And I just became really fascinated that
there was more than one way to do school. And I went to two different high
schools, and that really opened my eyes that there were better ways to do
school and not better ways to do school. And when I went to college, I didn't know
what I wanted to study.
[00:07:28.95] I was a good math student. I took AP calculus. I took a
calculus course, but that was-- I got tired of math, but I ended up tutoring
math in college and falling in love with that. And I was a religion minor and an
education minor, and I became aware really wrapped up in the ideas of Paolo
Freire and the ideas that there are models of education that are press and
models of education that can liberate, and I could see how that related to the
math classroom and that there was a way to do math class that really empowered
people and a way to do math class that really diminished people.
[00:08:06.00] And so I was interested by that problem. And so I went into
teaching and didn't have my credentials. So I started at a private boarding
school in Connecticut. Did outdoor ad and coach basketball, and house parented
in addition to teaching full-time math. And it was a really great place to
start my career, but ended-- and ended up after five years there moving to
California and teaching public school in Los Angeles high school, getting my
teaching credential. And after 12 years, I wanted-- I came back to my big
questions of why are some schools better than others and what can we do to
create some change.
[00:08:44.34] And I was feeling very trapped where I was at as a math
teacher and didn't-- it didn't seem like it was my path anymore. I wanted to
stay involved in math education. I was deeply passionate about math class, but
I wanted to get out and see other teachers and other math classrooms. I've
always been deeply grounded in the belief that teaching is a craft that we
learn best through each other, and I wanted to work with other teachers and
gain their stories and just shift my problem and practice, and that's led me the
journey here to y'all today. Lots of little chapters along the way but--
[00:09:21.20] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes. Coming to us from a hotspot in
Oregon on your phone and your car. So we're very glad that you're on the road
and you're sharing your passion with teachers. I just-- so one thing that
always comes up for me as a teacher and student is math. So it's interesting
that you're a math teacher because math is a subject that does diminish a lot
of people because of the way it's taught.
[00:09:54.32] And I can remember always being afraid in my math class that I
had to get it right like it always was about a right answer. And I'm intrigued
by the way you're talking about math and talking about it really like in a
different way. Could you just say a little bit more about what do you mean
about being empowered or making math be that why you're choosing to help
teachers with math content to include more kids instead of diminished? What
does that mean?
[00:10:34.53] CHASE ORTON: Yeah. I think that there's two purposes to math
class that I think that we all can agree on. The first is that we want students
to learn more math content, and the second one is about a mathematical
disposition, their math story, things like perseverance, collaboration,
willingness to take risk, finding joy with mathematics, that those things are
really important too and that's related around the human data, the process that
says that students are engaged. And so I think it's a lot about really focusing
on the second half for teachers about focusing on that human data and that
energy in the room, not so much about--
[00:11:14.40] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So the teaching. So the teaching of
it. So as the listeners are listening in 'cause they might not be teaching
math, what you're talking about is the pedagogy and how anyone listening as a
teacher can benefit from the wisdom that you're going to share with us today.
So thank you for clarifying that. So those are your journeys. I'd like each of
you to take a moment to think of a story or an incident or a situation in your
classrooms or when you were teaching 'cause I know you're doing more
professional work now that changed you as a teacher or gave you an insight that
has made you into who you are today, like significantly helped you grow.
[00:12:06.63] It might be a challenge. It might be something that was really
successful, but it was empowering, and it has-- it's that story that has stayed
with you for all these years. So Mia, what is it? Tell us that hidden wisdom.
[00:12:25.59] MIA PUMO: So, first of all, I'll say that my first job
teaching was at a very high-needs school in a very rough area. And I had an
incredible team. And I didn't know how blessed I was at the time. I thought all
teams and all schools operated this way, but extremely supportive. Just shared
everything, and we just naturally got together every day after school, and we
talked about our students. And we shared in the responsibility of teaching all
the students across the grade level.
[00:13:00.30] It wasn't like I have my class and you have yours. So that was
an incredible experience. And then a few years later, when I got into the--
teaching the upper grades and into all of the integrated testing, one day my
students were taking the big end-of-year test, and they had their scrap paper,
and they could only do something with their scrap paper when they were
finished. They weren't allowed to read. They weren't allowed to talk. You all
know the drill.
[00:13:31.30] So I'm walking around the room, and I'm noticing all of these
incredible creations that they're doing. Some were doing origami. Some-- one
was writing-- like creating a play, a skit, a storyboard. One was designing her
bedroom.
[00:13:51.63] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh my God. All on these little
papers?
[00:13:54.00] MIA PUMO: Yes, and it just hit me all of a sudden, like these
kids are so talented. And I know that some of them are going to be very upset
because of the result they're going to get on this particular test today, but I
want them to see their talents, and that's how I started to see my students was
these-- like everyone has this talent, and I just have to discover it, and then
and then help them to realize what they have and that it's something wonderful
to offer and everybody doesn't have to be great at all of the same things.
[00:14:29.28] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So the talent emerged, and then you
actually just noticed. And it was almost like accidental.
[00:14:37.25] MIA PUMO: It was.
[00:14:38.04] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: How has that changed the way you have
moved forward with students and with teachers? So do you do it intentionally
now because of that, or what?
[00:14:49.57] MIA PUMO: Absolutely. Yeah, because it made me realize that
everyone has hidden gifts and talents. Sometimes, they're more obvious than
others, but whether I'm working with students or whether I'm working with
adults, it's about discovering those, and it's about asking the right questions
to bring those out. It's about helping people discover their own strengths.
[00:15:09.25] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So how do you do that in a
profession-- so you're working now in that professional career, like what's a
way that you help a teacher discover their talent? So if people are listening
to this now, and they're like, oh, I don't know. What's my talent? I don't
know. How do you help them do that?
[00:15:27.95] MIA PUMO: That's a great point, and that's one of the things I
love about coaching. So I do a lot of coaching. And one of the-- and I train
coaches. And one of the things I tell them is that when people are in your
classroom, it's important to point out the things that are going well. We're
not just looking for gaps and what's missing but point out-- because teachers
don't realize, especially teachers maybe who haven't been doing it that long,
that they are doing some incredible things, and they think everybody's doing
that. They think it just comes naturally, and it doesn't.
[00:15:56.62] So it's important to point those things out. And then the other
thing is just it's important to build those authentic relationships and ask the
tough questions to help people reflect, to help people dig deep inside of
themselves to discover some of those things and to pay attention to their
strengths and how they bring those strengths to their profession.
[00:16:21.10] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Love it. Love it. So I would say
you're not so hidden talent is bringing the hidden talents out of others. So
you're intentionally doing that. I love that. So thank you. Chase, what's going
on with you? What's something significant that you remember when you look back
at your 12 years in the classroom that changed the way you looked at yourself
as an educator or just moved forward? What happened?
[00:16:53.75] CHASE ORTON: I think I was in my seventh year of teaching. I
was working with a student named Rudy and the story is a big feature in my
book. And Rudy was a senior taking algebra 2 for the second time, and he had
failed at his junior year. In the fall term, he would come to after school for
extra help and retake his exams and hustle his way through and pass fall term,
but spring term was a different story, and he fell really far behind, and he
had a senior thesis to do, and all graduates from his school had to be college eligible
in California that meant earning a passing grade in algebra 2. And he just
procrastinated and started to come a couple weeks left of school, and deadlines
came and went for senior grades, and I failed him.
[00:17:48.23] And he didn't-- I failed him. And I sat with that decision for
a really long time. And it really broke me, not specifically because of Rudy.
It broke me because I really felt like I was in a position in this machinery of
math education that would reward students for mimicry in the math classroom.
[00:18:12.88] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And that's when you started to make
the decision to actually improve and shift and change by helping teachers. Did
that decision come around then, or you stayed for five more years?
[00:18:26.69] CHASE ORTON: Yeah, yeah. I stayed. I have made terrible
financial decisions in my life and moved around a lot. And if you move around a
lot as a teacher, you're of acing yourself out of retirement and the few
benefits financially that can come with teaching. So don't take my advice.
[00:18:47.09] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: OK. OK.
[00:18:48.25] CHASE ORTON: Two grand of heart. But I taught-- and I needed
to finish to complete my credential, and I got my career credential, and
after-- and I completed bits and then-- I wanted to keep teaching. I didn't
want to work back in private school. I didn't want to work for the
socioeconomic elite, but I also didn't want to participate in the broken math
education system, particularly high school mathematics. Common Core was coming
out. That was changing nothing about high school math. I was excited about the
math practices, but nothing was getting fixed, nor do I think the new framework
is going to fix anything when it comes to high school mathematics.
[00:19:22.52] And I also have been in enough middle school math classrooms
to know that there's a special place in heaven for all middle school math
teachers.
[00:19:31.22] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, I know.
[00:19:32.33] CHASE ORTON: It's not in my skill set--
[00:19:33.65] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: All middle school teachers, too. All
areas--
[00:19:36.62] CHASE ORTON: Oh, my gosh, dude. Yeah.
[00:19:38.09] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: All areas.
[00:19:38.60] CHASE ORTON: Totally. And so and I was like, well, where am I
going to go? Well, and I didn't want to leave my community in LA, and so--
yeah, I just cut the thread of a regular paycheck, and it was trust that I'd
figure it out. And like me, I found instructional coaching and nonprofits that
were supporting LA unified and doing some math curriculum writing and then
eventually getting involved in doing workshops and lesson study and feeling
really nourished by that and still being in math classrooms and being in
different math classrooms.
[00:20:09.77] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: What's your message from the story--
[00:20:12.16] CHASE ORTON: My message--
[00:20:12.64] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: What's the big message that we want
to--
[00:20:14.69] CHASE ORTON: As teachers-- as any teacher out there be very
careful about the ways in which we blame students for where they're at. But it
is our job to do something about it where they're at and meeting them where
they're at, which may mean not doing the mandates of our job but really
advocating for the needs of our students.
[00:20:31.91] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: For the needs. Thank you. Thank you
for that story. Thank you. I'm going to shift a bit to a question that all our
listeners really appreciate some practical tip advice, something to do in the
classroom that they can take away from this podcast today that they could
actually do. And classroom management is a very broad term. So as you both
listen to that, it might be how you managed paper or how you manage behavior,
or routines, or rituals, or it's like the little magic bullet tip that you use
that you loved, and you did it, and it worked. Mia, what did you do?
[00:21:16.10] MIA PUMO: I'm going to say number one relationships, relationships,
relationships, get to know your students. When they feel truly respected and
valued, they will want to please you a bit more. Now, of course, I'm from the
elementary world, but I'm talking about 5, 6, 7-years-old as well deserve to be
treated--
[00:21:41.58] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So what's a relationship thing I
could do? Like, what's a practical thing that beginning teachers listening, and
she's like, OK. Yeah, yeah, I do want to do that, but what do I do to build
relationship like?
[00:21:57.06] MIA PUMO: So what I did was I created a rotation where I would
sit with different students at lunch at the beginning of the year. And so I
could just chat with them, and it was very low-key and low stakes, and they
were relaxed. And on the playground, too, sometimes I would just chit-chat with
different students. So those downtimes, I would take time to get to know them,
always sent the inventory home for the parents to try to find out more, and
then-- and just asking the children about themselves and allowing them,
especially the little children who love to tell their stories, allowing them
some of that time to share, to express themselves--
[00:22:40.00] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Share their story. Yeah.
[00:22:40.35] MIA PUMO: During morning meeting, I would have times where
they could share and tell their stories from home. And I wanted them to feel
valuable in the classroom.
[00:22:50.20] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that.
[00:22:50.85] CHASE ORTON: I mean, I agree with Mia 100%. I have had classrooms
that have been gut punches where every day I show up, and if I can get six out
of the 30 students to spend 15 minutes doing mathematics, that was a success
for me. And it was incredibly, incredibly demoralizing and frustrating, and
literally would show up and spend 55 minutes getting punched in the gut and
then have to go on with my day. And I remember second period-- it was first
period, and on Fridays at the end of first period was the most relieved I felt
because I didn't have to do it again.
[00:23:23.91] So starting to work-- remember, I'm working with high school
students. But I would start to interview that class specifically but all my
students about their week in math class.
[00:23:34.68] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: OK.
[00:23:35.52] CHASE ORTON: About their experience, I would ask them are
there ever a time when you felt like I was short with you or rude with you. I
would invite do I owe anybody an apology in this classroom? Do you owe anybody
else an apology in this classroom. Opportunities to clear the air. And doing
this where I'm not standing in front of the room, and they're sitting in chairs
'cause now I'm talking down to them and exerting my authority over them.
[00:23:59.38] But I-- at some point, I think the mistakes that young teachers
make that are listening out there is that we think that classroom management is
about exercising your authority, right? And it is not about power and
authority. You have to earn that. And like Mia is talking about with
relationships, like it is not what you tell them. It's what you show them. And
so I'm saying if you're having problems with classroom management, ask the
students from their perspective, and make sure that the story you're telling
yourself is true. Get in other teachers' classrooms, watch how they do
classroom management, and watch how their classroom management issues are
different than yours.
[00:24:38.79] And if you still have some students that you can't get to
focus, and this presumes you're not a self-contained classroom like an elementary
school teacher, but watch those students in other classrooms where they are
focused, and you'll see what you need to see to realize that it's not about the
kid. It's about you and whatever you're doing in that classroom that's not
working for them. And so I think classroom management sometimes we fall into
blaming the kid, and we need--
[00:25:06.29] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: We'll get to that. So that's an
interesting thing that comes back to us and our wisdom and the way in which we
relate. And it's so interesting 'cause you both-- you're both spectrums we've
got the elementary and the high school, and it's the same message of
relationships and listening and moving forward in that way. So let's talk about
how you survived and thrived and took care of yourselves. Maybe now because you
were both in the classroom putting 100% in, but we need to focus on more. Well,
being now, that's what I'm learning as I work with more teachers.
[00:25:47.15] It isn't just the content. It isn't just the pedagogy. It's
finding that balance in our lives. So we need to model it as educators. So what
do you do, Mia to model or to take care of yourself so that you can keep doing
the work you're doing with educators across the country?
[00:26:06.68] MIA PUMO: Yeah, great question. And this is certainly
something that has evolved over time for me. I can admit I was not great at
this when I started teaching as a lot of teachers. I was working all the time.
It was not only my job. It was my passion. It was my hobby. It was everything.
But you will burn out that way.
[00:26:26.42] So I had to learn over time how to take care of myself. So I
would say the first thing I did was develop a morning routine. So yes, I
already had to get up super early and be at work by 7 AM or before, but those
extra 20 or 30 minutes were completely worth it to center myself. And, you
know, I'm not going to say you have to do A, B, and C. It doesn't really
matter. It's very personal what you do.
[00:26:53.95] It might be meditation. It might be prayer. It might be just
sitting quietly. It might be planning the day in your head. It might be
movement. It might be jogging, walking, yoga, whatever. But having something
that's just for you, yes, you have to get up before sometimes, your own
children or your family members, but it's worth it in the end.
[00:27:17.03] And-- but the other thing before I started doing that even is
I did things for myself, but I had to bring my students right along with me
because, as an elementary teacher, I didn't have breaks. I couldn't just take
breaks and walk away and have those moments to myself. So I created them in my
schedule throughout the day where we would have a dance break, or we would walk
outside, or we would just have a brain break and do something fun. And now that
I've been doing the work I'm doing now for so many years, I understand that is
good for all humans, children, and adults is like we all need frequent breaks
to be productive and to thrive in any kind of work or school environment.
[00:28:03.47] If I could redesign schools, I would definitely have more
breaks and free time recess, whatever you want to call it, in middle and high
school as well. They need it desperately.
[00:28:14.63] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.
[00:28:15.38] MIA PUMO: Not just the elementary students that need to get
outside and run around. So but-- yeah, I would schedule. I had quiet time. I
didn't call it meditation or prayer or anything controversial, but I had quiet
time built in for the day. I would walk around and just say positive
affirmations over my students and just spend that time praising them. So they
were hearing great things about themselves, and they could just have a little
bit of downtime. But I just created those in my daily schedule, and I've
continued to build things into my personal life that involve getting quiet and
moving that have served me well.
[00:28:54.11] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that. I think what you're
saying is so important for our listeners because it is that intentional
preparation of the start of the day that I do think sets us up. But what you're
saying that I haven't heard anybody else say in the same way is that
integration throughout the day of short modeling pause this is if you will
that, just allow us to center ourselves, but we're doing it with our students
as well. And they don't have to be that long. They can be like a minute.
[00:29:27.54] And I notice that it really makes a difference. I'm a
certified yoga teacher, and I learned so much from the yoga and the mindfulness
practices. And you're reminding me as you're talking about it that we do as
teachers need to integrate it into our day with our students. So, Chase how
does this resonate with you? Like how do you take care of yourself, and what
did you hear Mia say that makes sense to you, too?
[00:29:58.84] CHASE ORTON: Yeah. I love the need to take breaks to take
quiet moments. I think it's really important for us to take deep breaths and
pause, particularly in our day, to allow our emotions to get-- there's-- I
forget the author, but to allow our emotions to get so far ahead that we become
detached from them meaning that we talk about how our emotions get ahead of
ourselves, and we start to act impulsively, and we're feeling frustrated, and
we're acting from an emotional space which isn't always productive. And so the
idea of realizing that if you just wait long enough, whatever anger and
frustration that you're feeling will disappear, particularly if you sit with it
and just breathe through it.
[00:30:42.80] And I think that there's value in sitting with it for a little
bit because you don't need to act on it. You can let it go and be OK. And I
think-- I agree with all the things that Mia is saying, I bet-- I mean, we can
go online and look at what keeps us mentally healthy and exercise, and eating
right, and getting good sleep, and taking breaks is really important. I think--
perhaps what I would add as a teacher spend your breaks growing some flesh. And
that's coming from advice from a former boss about teaching whittles you down
to the bone the school year, right?
[00:31:26.62] All the needs and picking at you and picking at you and
picking at you. And so it was time to grow some flesh like on your teacher
soul, you know? Like, get fat a little bit like just on your-- on-- so because
it's going to be some lean times when you come back into the school year. And
so you're going to need that. And so I think it's really important to engage a
meaningful learning while you're on break but to give yourself some time away
from having to make decisions, having to work with young people, and really
allowing that opportunity for recovery to happen, or you're not going to have
the full enough tank that you need--
[00:32:09.61] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: That refresher. I like what you're
saying about decisions. I just recently read something somewhere, and it was
called decision fatigue. And I felt like I was in it a few weeks ago, and I was
like, wow, I never really thought about it that way. It's just like having to
make multiple decisions, and teachers make about 1,500 decisions a day. And I
never thought of it as that fatigue. So thank you for reminding us to just kind
of in that pause where we're building up. We're building up refreshing
nourishing.
[00:32:49.19] Thank you both. As we wind down, I just want to ask a couple
closing questions. One is I want-- I want to give each of you a chance to just
say a couple of things about your books. So, Mia, you have your own published
book with Balboa, and then you are a guest-- a guest author in my book. So I
want you to say a little bit about each of those publishing experiences for you
and why-- what's your message there for our listeners?
[00:33:20.01] MIA PUMO: I will say that the book that I wrote was a labor of
love. I never really set out to be an author. It wasn't like a dream I had,
like I want to write a book. But when I started working with humans, as we all
do, and learning more about really getting curious about how people thrive. I
wanted to get out of survival mode, and I wanted to get into a place where I
was thriving. So I started learning about that and studying it and just
everything I could find to get my hands on and trying different things in my
own life.
[00:33:55.02] And when I found something that worked, then I just wanted to
share it because I am a teacher, and I always want to teach. So when I find
something amazing, I want to share it with the world. And that's really what
the book I wrote was about. So, What Are You Craving is really about people who
have-- maybe you're in-- we'll call it the middle of your life. I don't know.
I'll say over 30, and you've realized that the decisions you've made up to this
point have gotten you to this place, and it's not where you want to be, but you
feel stuck.
[00:34:27.64] Because, well, I made all these decisions in my 20s, and now I
have-- I'm stuck with them, and I just want people to understand that is not
the case that we can change our trajectory at any point. It's not easy, but it
is possible. And I do want to say I wrote that book with my best friend from
elementary school, who's an attorney by day but a foodie at heart, and that's
how we came up with the metaphor of planning and designing the perfect meal and
using those steps to talk about how you can really think through and design the
life that you're craving and live it and--
[00:35:05.29] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love it. I love that book. It's
such-- and it has recipes in it, too.
[00:35:10.39] MIA PUMO: And it has recipes.
[00:35:11.41] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: It has recipes, and it's like, what
are you craving? And it makes me hungry when I think of that book.
[00:35:16.76] MIA PUMO: But it's very practical as well.
[00:35:19.00] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, it is practical. It's a sweet.
It's very sweet. I love it. I love it.
[00:35:24.05] MIA PUMO: And then I'll just say that it's just such an honor
to be included in your book, When I Started Teaching I wish I Had Known
because, again, my heart is with teachers and to always support teachers. And
so now, I'm just so blessed, and the work that I do that, I can take what I've
learned about creating a life that's thriving, and I can help teachers
understand how to implement those ideas into their work life as a teacher because,
as you all know, teaching is a very hard job.
[00:35:58.64] And we are suffering from a lot of burnout, and a lot of
people are leaving the profession. So I want to help people learn how they can
thrive and stay in this wonderful profession that we need so badly.
[00:36:11.20] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you, Mia. And it's an honor to
have you part of that one of the 36 teachers. All right. Chase, what can people
expect-- say your title again for your book that's published by Corwin and what
can people expect? Is it just for math teachers? Could another teacher read it?
Tell us what to expect.
[00:36:31.93] CHASE ORTON: I think it's for all of us. Teachers and non
teachers alike is about--
[00:36:35.21] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: OK.
[00:36:36.01] CHASE ORTON: Being an imperfect human being and remaining
unfinished and seeking ways to continue to grow. And a lot of themes about what
Mia is talking about-- like about how can we support each other to become the
thriving teachers that we want to become. The subtitle of the book-- so it's
The Imperfect Unfinished Math Teacher, and it outlines a journey for-- it's a
teacher-centered, teacher-directed book to take control and seize control over
their own professional development and their own culture of professional
learning.
[00:37:07.21] And there's so much that we get wrong with professional
development positioning teachers as consumers rather than producers of
professional knowledge. It diminishes our identity, robs us of our agency. We
work in a system of silos that rob us of the relationships, and the community
and the love that we need as human beings to thrive. And it also working in
silos, robs us of the perspective, the vantage that we need to grow and become
self-directed learners. And we work-- at least in math education in a really
myopic an asinine approach to like standardized testing and measuring our
growth with standardized test scores that leave us really unnourished as
teachers.
[00:37:50.42] And so I wrote this book for two reasons. One I'm concerned
about the overall health and well-being of the teaching profession the teaching
vitality, particularly as it relates to math teachers are worried that-- too
many of us are worrying-- coming to the conclusion that teaching math class
just isn't worth it given the system that we work in and that scares me quite a
bit. And I'm also worried about our cultural math story that so many people
don't have a positive relationship with mathematics because math class didn't
work for them, and I want to create a way to really empower teachers to make
some changes there.
[00:38:25.17] And really, it comes down to four quick things, which is take
ownership over your own learning. The PD you're going to get is always going to
underperform. Even the professional development I give is not going to get them
to where they need to go. But they need to take ownership over that and to
focus on what you value. That's the second one. The third one is being in each
other's classrooms. It is-- it blows my mind how alien it is in our culture of
professionalism that teachers aren't in each other's classrooms.
[00:38:54.81] I would never want to get on an airplane with a pilot that
never watch another pilot teach, at least for thousands of hours. Same is true
for a dentist. Same is true for a doctor. Same is true for a welder or a
plumber. You know, like-- and we, as teachers, we go through our teacher
credentialing program. Mia brought this up earlier like maybe somebody comes in
and gives us feedback on a walk-through tool that doesn't really help us grow
or makes it squeaks us out like we don't know like why are you here, and am I
going to get evaluated 'cause it's such a foreign thing.
[00:39:23.20] And we need to be in each other's classrooms as much as
possible. I work with leaders about how we can create that opportunity as
economically as possible. But I tell teachers the best use of your professional
time is to spend time in another classroom watching other teachers teach. You
will see whatever it is you need to see to change your mind. To go back to your
point, Carol, about I used to believe, but now I do go in a math classroom.
You'll walk out and be like, whoa, I used to think this, and you won't-- and
you might be like, but now I wonder if, right?
[00:39:56.19] And this we get to the last one about it is too hard to be a
teacher and go alone. To be an expert teacher, you have to have colleagues, and
if they're not on your site with the people that you work with, you got to find
them online. And I try to build a lot of community online. And I want to create
a sense of belonging, particularly for those teachers that are teaching in
rural places and they're in silos. And I want them to know that they're not
alone. That all of us are imperfect. None of us are crushing it in math class,
and that good teachers are remaining unfinished in their thinking and in their
practice, and in their identity.
[00:40:35.23] And so it's a book to help us really rise up against the
status quo of a cultural professional development that hasn't worked against us
so that we can feel better about the job that we do, right? This job is too
hard not to be in love with it. And so I want more teachers to have that love,
and that's why I wrote this book. But you don't even need to buy the book,
Carol, 'cause I'm making free episodes on YouTube.
[00:40:58.74] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah.
[00:40:59.31] CHASE ORTON: And I've got the first four-- I've got the first
four online and-- 15 to 20 minutes meant to get them on a commute. And they'll
make the book better. It's not a book on tape. It's a companion, but each
episode mirrors a chapter. And I'm stoked about it. I'm at Imperfect Unfinished
on YouTube. Search for that. Search for Chase Orton. You'll find me.
[00:41:24.86] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: We'll do it. We'll do it.
[00:41:26.64] CHASE ORTON: So, yeah.
[00:41:27.45] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I can hear the passion in your voice.
What I want to emphasize comes back to what Mia said in the beginning, which
was share. Like she was on a team, and she didn't know how important that team
was. It was a blessing. And then we find ourselves sometimes on teams that
aren't as cooperative. So our message is create a team. We can find a team that
we are wise.
[00:41:56.16] You two have shared from your hearts authentically the raw
real teacher talk teacher to teacher, and I hope our listeners have taken away
the message that they need to enhance their own practice. So let's close with a
wise statement. I used to think this about teaching education whatever, and now
I think this to leave our listeners with some inspiration from your hearts and
minds. Mia, what did-- what did you use to think, and what do you think now?
[00:42:31.66] MIA PUMO: I'm just going to double down on something that
Chase said, and that's visit each other's classrooms because I used to think
that observations and visiting classrooms was about seeing the perfect lesson.
And now I believe that it's really about learning from each other. So I just
want to say visit other classrooms as much as you can. As a learner, be open to
having people in your classroom.
[00:42:59.48] Give each other feedback. Be open to feedback. It's the only
way we grow and learn, and yeah, I just agree 100% with Chase that that is the
best way to have professional growth and development.
[00:43:12.28] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Love it. All right. Chase, last word.
I used to think, and now I think.
[00:43:16.67] CHASE ORTON: I used to think that the best way to do a math
lesson was through synchronicity, keeping all my kids together, everybody get
this step ready to take a step forward. Let's do this one and marching them
along. And I would pride myself on leading the kids through like I was leading
them through a maze, and how many kids came out the other side and feel good
about myself. And I realized that kids don't learn math that way. But even if
they make it through the maze-- even if they make it through the maze they're
like, oh, we went through a maze. Well, I didn't learn anything. And I'd be
like, you're here. How did you get here?
[00:43:46.61] So I've learned that that class should be that there are ways
of doing math class that are asynchronous and ways to really positioning
students so they're working each together rather than all marching along in
unison. And so I've been thinking a lot about that actually really recently about
how can we do better to make math class an asynchronous learning experience as
much as possible so we can position more students as capable while also
navigating the realities of being teachers but focusing on getting two students
to all-- to the same time rather than the same place.
[00:44:25.70] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Love it. Love it.
[00:44:26.90] CHASE ORTON: Think a lot about that. Well,
[00:44:28.43] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: This has been quite a conversation.
Thank you so much, both of you, for sharing your journeys into teaching, and
where you are now, still helping educators and sharing your wisdom. So, Tori,
I'm going to let you have the last word summarizing your takeaways from this
podcast.
[00:44:52.38] TORI BACHMAN: Sure. Thanks.
[00:44:53.18] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: What did you learn? What did you
learn?
[00:44:55.16] TORI BACHMAN: I learned a ton. You know what? I'm really
enjoying about these conversations is that we've paired up two educators who
didn't know each other prior to this conversation. And it's really just been a
fun experience and really interesting experience to see all these ways where
you all are in agreement and are doing things very similarly and maybe have
come at it from different approaches. But what really came out of this
conversation for me was something Chase said early on focus on the human data.
[00:45:29.42] That seems to be something that you both feel really
passionate about. And whether it's focusing on the human data of the kids in
front of you or focusing on the human data of the teachers around you that you
work with or that you have to find online in another way, that seems to be like
really at the heart of what you both do. Chase, you said something that I wrote
down teaching as a craft. We learn best from each other. I might have muddled
that a little bit, but I think that was the gist.
[00:46:01.85] It was--
[00:46:02.32] CHASE ORTON: That's it.
[00:46:02.63] TORI BACHMAN: And I think that's something that you both feel
really strongly about. And it's-- I think that's an important thing for
teachers at all experience levels to hang on to that. We really do need each
other in this field. And Mia, you talked about imperfection and Chase. That's a
running theme in your book and your work, and really not only being open to
imperfection but embracing it and like realizing that this is a journey and
feedback is important and learning from one another is important. Learning from
the kids in front of you is important.
[00:46:42.78] The relationship focus in terms of classroom management. I
think Chase, you said some really lovely things that restorative practice
around classroom management and really looking at yourself instead of blaming
kids that came up a few times in things that you said across the hour. And I
think that's a really important takeaway for all of us for educators at all
levels. So thank you both. This has really been interesting. And I just really
enjoy seeing how your two very different journeys match up in these really
beautiful ways. So thank you. I appreciate you being here.
[00:47:28.35] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you, both. Thank you.
[00:47:31.73] SPEAKER 1: Thanks, everyone, for joining today's Teacher To
Teacher conversation. We hope this time together energized you, inspired you,
and reminded you why you chose to become a teacher. You can purchase any of
Carol's books and any books mentioned in the podcast online at www.corwin.com.
Please leave a review and share this podcast with your colleagues. Thank you
for listening to the Corwin Teacher To Teacher podcast, a place to share
teacher wisdom and engage in authentic conversations with experienced
educators.
[00:48:02.08] SPEAKER 2: Come explore Corwin's free new teacher toolkit and
resources. We've curated these resources based on extensive research from
teachers, coaches, and principals alike. Whether you are brand new or a veteran
teacher, find ready-to-go teaching tools at corwin.com today.
Carol Pelletier Radford
Carol received her Education Doctorate from the Harvard University Graduate School of Education, where she focused her studies on mentoring and teacher leadership. She is also a certified yoga teacher who practices meditation and shares mindfulness strategies with educators through her online courses and website. Her podcast Teaching With Light features the stories of teachers and inspirational leaders. Her next passion project is the creation of a Teacher Legacy Network, where retired teachers can share their wisdom with the next generation of teachers.
You can learn more about Carol, find free resources, videos, meditations, courses, and all of her books at mentoringinaction.com/.
Twitter: @MentorinAction
Facebook: @MentoringinAction4Teachers
Instagram: @cpradford
Chase Orton
Chase Orton’s unique career path has been guided by his passion for creating productive and inspired math classrooms that are engaging and fulfilling for both students and their teachers.
After graduating from Wheaton College in Norton, MA, he embarked on a 12-year journey as a math teacher at three different schools: The Forman School in Litchfield, CT; The Eagle Rock School and Professional Development Center in Estes Park, CO; and Environmental Charter High School in Lawndale, CA. In 2012, Chase founded Mobius Educational Consulting and ventured out as an independent collaborator with different non-profits and school districts in California. He’s worked as an instructional coach for Los Angeles Education Partnership and the Partnership for Los Angeles Schools. He partnered with the Center for Mathematics and Teaching as lead author of MathLinks, a comprehensive middle school math curriculum. He is a Desmos Fellow and a Certified Facilitator for Illustrative Mathematics.
As an accomplished facilitator of lesson study for K-12 math teachers, Chase currently invests his professional time partnering with districts who are interested in taking a teacher-centered, teacher-directed approach to professional development. The Imperfect and Unfinished Teacher of Mathematics is his first book.
An aspiring storyteller, Chase lives on the road and is currently collecting stories from math teachers all over the country. Interested in having Chase come visit you? He would love to hear from you. You can follow Chase on Twitter (@mathgeek76) and online at www.chaseorton.com. He shares his stories from the road on Instagram (@TheTravelingStoop).
Mia Pumo
Mia Pumo is a Program Manager at Ed Direction, working across the country with education leaders to create environments where educators and students can thrive. She is a former elementary teacher and instructional coach. She is the author of "What Are You Craving?" Designing the Life You Were Meant To Live.
Carol Pelletier Radford
Carol received her Education Doctorate from the Harvard University Graduate School of Education, where she focused her studies on mentoring and teacher leadership. She is also a certified yoga teacher who practices meditation and shares mindfulness strategies with educators through her online courses and website. Her podcast Teaching With Light features the stories of teachers and inspirational leaders. Her next passion project is the creation of a Teacher Legacy Network, where retired teachers can share their wisdom with the next generation of teachers.
You can learn more about Carol, find free resources, videos, meditations, courses, and all of her books at mentoringinaction.com/.
Twitter: @MentorinAction
Facebook: @MentoringinAction4Teachers
Instagram: @cpradford
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