Dream Out Loud
Guest(s): Cathleen Beachboard and Rick Rogers
Date: 11/06/2024
Run time: 46:45
Season 3, Episode 9
Join host Carol Pelletier Radford and her inspiring guests as they share pivotal moments, successful classroom strategies, and tips to stay healthy. Each episode of Season 3 is based on the 10 lessons from Carol's book, Teaching With Light (Corwin, 2021).
In Episode 9, hear from Cathleen Beachboard & Rick Rogers in "Dream Out Loud" as they share their experiences, practical advice, and ways to stay inspired!
Cathleen Beachboard is an award-winning educator, author, speaker, and researcher specializing in the science of psychological hope. As a current classroom teacher and best-selling author of The School of Hope (Corwin, 2022), she is dedicated to transforming education by equipping schools with the tools to foster resilience, well-being, and achievement.
Rick Rogers is a life-long educator who served as a principal for 29 years in both suburban and urban settings. He is currently the program coordinator and a facilitator for the Soul of Leadership, a personal and leadership renewal program for school leaders.
Bonus Track: Carol’s Dream Out Loud story from Teaching With Light
Listen, review and subscribe on: Apple, Spotify, YouTube,
Episode Audio
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[00:00:00.88] [MUSIC PLAYING]
[00:00:02.65] PRESENTER 1: Welcome to Corwin's Teacher to Teacher podcast
with host Carol Pelletier Radford. Carol is an experienced classroom teacher
and university educator, founder of mentoring and action.com, and author of
four best selling professional books for teachers.
[00:00:17.24] She believes the best form of professional learning happens
when teachers engage in authentic conversations and share their wisdom. In
every episode, Carol and her guests share stories about pivotal moments in
their careers, successful classroom strategies, and personal actions they take
to minimize stress and stay healthy.
[00:00:34.88] The Teacher to Teacher podcast is a place to engage in
authentic conversation and reflection with experienced educators. We hope these
conversations will energize you, keep you inspired, and remind you why you
chose to become a teacher.
[00:00:48.83] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Welcome to season three of the
Teacher to Teacher podcast. I am your host, Carol Pelletier Radford. And I'm
thrilled to be part of a conversation with two very experienced educators.
[00:01:02.90] The theme for season three is based on the book I wrote
titled, Teaching with Light: Ten Lessons for Finding Wisdom, Balance and
Inspiration. Each of the 10 episodes for this season mirror the 10 lessons in
the book. And today's episode is less than 8, "Always Be Brave."
[00:01:26.06] And I have two very brave guests with me today. And I'm happy
to have Dennis and Shawn with me. And I'm going to have each of the guests
introduce themselves and tell me what you're doing right now in the education
field. And then maybe a little backstory of how you kind of ended up here. So,
Shawn, welcome. Introduce yourself.
[00:01:52.77] SHAWN THOMAS: Thank you so much, Carol. Hi, my name is Shawn
Thomas. I am a longtime educator. This is my 28 year of teaching all in the
same district, the largest district in Georgia. And I have taught kindergarten,
second grade, third grade.
[00:02:08.58] But the majority of my career has been teaching multilingual
learners in an elementary school, so K through 5. And I'm currently the lead ML
teacher, ML stands for multilingual learner, in my school building.
[00:02:25.90] I got started teaching-- I wanted to be a teacher since I was
13 years old when I went to visit my mom in New York-- my mom, my aunt in New
York because they were still in school. And I went to help her with her
kindergartners and said, this is what I want to do with my life. And so ever
since then, I've just been doing it, and I love it.
[00:02:45.84] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And it sounds like you were one of
the many that of our listeners is there's several groups of people. Like, I
always wanted to be a teacher. Like, I was the same way, playing with my dolls
and bossing all my siblings around.
[00:03:02.10] And then there's this whole group of people that are teachers
like, I never thought of being a teacher, and I ended up teaching. And how did
this happen? So thank you for sharing my story, which is I always wanted to be
a teacher.
[00:03:17.37] All right, Dennis, your turn. Introduce yourself. What are you
doing? How did you get into education? What's your little teacher story?
[00:03:25.86] DENNIS SHIRLEY: OK, let's go back. So, Shawn, you said 13. I
think I'm around 12. I've done the magic of education. My sixth grade teacher,
Mr. Levine, decided that he would teach his sixth graders Albert Einstein's
theory of relativity, a completely madcap expedition.
[00:03:45.70] He was a first year teacher. And that wasn't significant in
and of itself. What was significant was he tried to introduce us to the idea
that time and space were related and space could speed up and slow down. He
said, even time could slow down so much that maybe it would stop.
[00:04:04.26] OK, so I was 12, and this is where Jean Piaget called the
stage of formal operations categories and touch things and figure out the
world. And this guy gave me an incredible gift, an incredible gift. He let me
argue with him.
[00:04:20.62] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Whoa.
[00:04:21.96] DENNIS SHIRLEY: I said to him, Mr. Levine, there's no way that
time can stop. It is the nature of time that it cannot stop. And not only did
he let me argue with him in class, but he let me stay. We must have stayed for
about an hour after school where I argued that time could not stop.
[00:04:39.43] Now I've learned later on, if you look it up on Google, the
expansion of the universe and time is slowing down. It's still expanding, but
it's slowing down. And astrophysicists will tell you it could happen, right? It
could. But that just lit a fire under me.
[00:04:55.55] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And you wanted to become a teacher
because he allowed that to happen in junior high?
[00:05:02.03] DENNIS SHIRLEY: There were a bunch of teachers I had where I
just--
[00:05:05.30] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:05:06.24] DENNIS SHIRLEY: --are the coolest person in the whole world.
Now, this is very important for teachers out there. You don't have to kind of
try and play up to your image of what your students might think would be a cool
teacher.
[00:05:19.72] Like a lot of young people in high school, I was very
confused. My father was in Vietnam part of the time. Protests were going on.
Political leaders had been assassinated. It was a mess when I was in high
school. But you get a few good teachers. They don't all have to be great.
[00:05:36.19] Some of them were just solid teachers. Some of them were
terrible. But you get a few great ones. And then you're like, what is this
adventure? I want to be part of this thing.
[00:05:45.34] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yay. Yay. And you-- so that seed was
planted similar to what happened to Shawn. But you ended up as a professor. So
tell us-- so this is Dennis Shirley, everyone. And Dennis is a research
professor.
[00:06:03.67] So let's-- so what are you doing now? Like, that-- time
stopped or didn't stop, and you're doing something now as an educator. What is
that?
[00:06:13.12] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Yeah. Well, I just finished a book for Corwin
with Andy Hargreaves. It's called The Age of Identity: Who Do Our Kids Think
They Are and How Do We Help Them Belong?
[00:06:23.59] And I feel like my mind is just so full of ideas that I needed
to take a break from teaching full-time because there was so much I still
wanted to get down and communicate and be in dialogue with people. So right
now, I'm in a little bit of an interlude.
[00:06:39.24] But I'm going to dive back into it once I've kind of got a few
more big ideas. So being a professor is kind of fun because people pay you to
think.
[00:06:49.36] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yay.
[00:06:51.80] DENNIS SHIRLEY: --student engagement written about well-being,
written about identity. You kind of-- I try to be honest to what's happening in
the schools and not just go in and say, here's what I'm interested in. Now, let
me research it.
[00:07:03.09] I try to be much more like, what's going on, and what do you
think is important in your building? And then let the educators and the
students lead.
[00:07:11.02] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that. And that really relates
to what we're going to talk about today, which is bravery, courage. And in the
book, Teaching with Light, one of the lesson is me telling teachers to always
be brave.
[00:07:29.03] It's like we need to come from a place of bravery and be able
to articulate our voices when we need to. And to do that, I'm hearing what
you're saying, Dennis, you have to kind of pause, think. And we're paid to
think too.
[00:07:47.07] Teachers-- we're always doers. But I think teachers in the
classroom, in the front lines, part of that is thinking about what we want to
do that supports our students. So, Shawn, when I say--
[00:08:02.73] SHAWN THOMAS: --Carol. Can I--
[00:08:03.69] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, go ahead.
[00:08:05.16] SHAWN THOMAS: --Dennis said that I think actually goes along
with that. You talked about how your teachers are very different. And I think
one of the bravest things a new teacher can do is to be themselves.
[00:08:14.55] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you.
[00:08:15.76] SHAWN THOMAS: You don't have to be the idea of what you see on
Pinterest, on TikTok, on Instagram. Just be who you are. And that's one of the
bravest things a brand new teacher can do.
[00:08:27.37] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you for underscoring that. And
it's really-- it's nerve-wracking. Beginning teachers, I work with a lot of
beginning teachers, are very nervous. And once I had the opportunity to do a
video to interview students, and I set--
[00:08:44.83] --the question was, what advice do you have for your beginning
teachers? And the first thing that all the students said was don't be so
nervous. We're just humans. Because the teacher would try to come in and be the
fake cool teacher like Dennis was talking about.
[00:09:03.25] And the kids can see right through it, for one thing. And so
thank you for saying that. So what's always be brave mean to you in addition to
that? What else comes up for you, Shawn?
[00:09:18.43] SHAWN THOMAS: So to me, always being brave means choosing
those battles and standing up for them. And so as a teacher of multilingual
learners, I've had to do that often in my career. So I'll tell you a story. I
had a principal.
[00:09:36.64] I'm going to call him Mr. M. And the state and the district
has a way of how they fund support and services for our multilingual learner
students. And what I had found over the course of my career is that getting the
most funding was not necessarily the best way to provide services.
[00:09:58.63] So one of the times I had to be brave was I had to go to my
principal and say, I understand about FTE and funding. However, these are
children. And these are people first. And we have to remember that we have
someone's child here. They have entrusted us to do what's best for this child.
[00:10:20.98] He was not happy with that. I had to give up part of my
planning time, but I did that in order to make a space where my newcomer
students were getting support that they needed. So that's what bravery means to
me, is choosing those battles. Choose that hill you're going to die on, and
stand up even if your voice is shaking--
[00:10:44.72] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right.
[00:10:45.88] SHAWN THOMAS: --for the students in front of you.
[00:10:47.56] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right. And that's that pause that
Dennis was talking about. You have to pause and think and choose. It's not
every single one.
[00:10:55.44] SHAWN THOMAS: Yes.
[00:10:56.31] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: What is it? And what can we do? I
always have-- the beginning teachers are very nervous about that, though. What
advice do you have-- like, first year teacher is going to say, I am not going
to say something to my principal the first year because I don't even really
know what I'm doing.
[00:11:18.64] How do you organize that if you're early-- in your early
career stage? What advice would you have related to-- how is that bravery going
to show up?
[00:11:30.73] SHAWN THOMAS: Well, I think, and you actually mentioned this
in your book is to ask for support. So if there is something that you see that
you aren't sure if that's the best way, go to a veteran teacher. Have that
trusted person. It could be a grade manager.
[00:11:44.79] It could be a coach in your building, could be an assistant
principal, and just ask questions. Can you tell me why it's done this way? Has
it been done other ways? Is there a reasoning?
[00:11:54.75] And then if you find that you have an idea, I'll tell people,
all they can tell you is no, but you can always go and say, I have an idea. Can
I try this? That may be a way that, that teacher can show bravery.
[00:12:07.05] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I like that.
[00:12:07.85] SHAWN THOMAS: Is just to ask.
[00:12:08.65] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And then the mentoring, so that's a
leadership-- that's emerging into teacher leadership. We talked about this with
my guests on episode seven about emerging teacher leaders with early career
teachers, with the teachers coming in that they don't have to wait for 20 years
to be leaders.
[00:12:26.81] And part of being a leader is that voice and being brave to
speak up and come up with a solution too. It sounds like you had a solution.
Like, you are proposing something. Yes, you gave up your planning time.
[00:12:40.69] I probably hear listeners going, ah, I don't really want to
give up my planning time to do this, but sometimes, that's what it takes to
resolve the issue. So being brave and being part of the solution, not just
identifying the problem and bringing it to the principal doesn't always work,
is what I'm hearing you say.
[00:13:02.35] SHAWN THOMAS: Absolutely. Always come up with an idea of a
solution. And they may not take it. But if you have a concern and you've kind
of done your research and figured out why it's like that, come up with some
ideas and always be willing to share it because that shows that teacher
leadership.
[00:13:18.52] And as you said, you don't have to have been in the field for
20 years. You can be a brand new person. You've got new ideas, share them.
[00:13:25.30] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, but have the courage to share
it. And I think what you're saying, which I love, is that you don't have to do
that alone. You find your mentor to be the advocate with you, just as what
we're saying is we're being advocates for our students.
[00:13:44.50] But the beginning teachers need someone to go with them to the
principal, not by themselves--
[00:13:50.97] SHAWN THOMAS: Yes.
[00:13:51.73] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: --and maybe co-create the solution.
And sometimes, like you're saying, that solution isn't the solution, but it
ripples. It's brainstorming. It ripples into something else. Dennis, what do
you think about what we're saying? Does this relate to you?
[00:14:06.28] You'll have a chance to share your bravery story, but what's
your reaction to what we're saying?
[00:14:12.43] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Oh, gosh, on so many levels, I think that what
Shawn was just saying is, and you too, Carol, is we have to pay attention to
the language that we use.
[00:14:22.29] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.
[00:14:23.61] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Administrators are busy people, and they don't
like getting yelled at by anybody, but they actually get yelled at a fair
amount.
[00:14:30.56] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, they do.
[00:14:31.90] DENNIS SHIRLEY: You asked this really good question about
bravery. I think one of the bravest things I ever heard a teacher say, and this
was in the Rio Grande Valley in Texas, where I did a lot of work for a number
of years with community organizing for school improvement. The teacher said an
angry parent is an opportunity.
[00:14:49.21] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, I love that.
[00:14:51.19] DENNIS SHIRLEY: That's actually quite courageous because it
says that the teacher understands that the parents don't really what goes on in
schools often. They don't understand what's going on with test scores. And you
can do this, and you can't do that and pull ins and push outs and computer
assisted instruction, and et cetera.
[00:15:10.81] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right.
[00:15:11.61] DENNIS SHIRLEY: --it all. But their child might come home
crying and really upset and not able to sleep. And so I think that when
educators are able to flip things like that, that actually, the parents we
should be worried about are the parents who don't care.
[00:15:27.54] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right. Right.
[00:15:29.05] DENNIS SHIRLEY: That's what we should worry about, apathy.
Kids who are really neglected. So I guess that's just kind of one example of
bravery. And then. I'm not sure if this is an example of my bravery, but it's
an example, I hope, of my responsiveness.
[00:15:48.73] I was in a meeting many years ago at Boston College, and the
professors were all presenting their research and their methodologies and their
findings.
[00:15:55.40] And a woman named Pat Donatelli, who was a cluster leader in
the Boston public schools at the time said at the end of all these
presentations, she said, look, these are fascinating research questions,
brilliant methodologies. I can't understand them. Conclusion seem interesting.
[00:16:09.68] But as a school based educator, your questions are not our
questions. And that gave me a headache for about six weeks. And then out of
that, I thought, she's right, and I need to kind of go back and work with
classroom teachers.
[00:16:25.34] I need to go back into the schools where cheek by jowl with
classroom teachers and learn from them. And then this is something I'd like to
encourage teachers to think about. Rarely, did I ever have any teachers come
after me and say, I really need your best thinking on this.
[00:16:43.43] I really need you to kind of work with me around this. So when
we think of that community supporting teachers, it's good to have those mentor
teachers, good to have those leaders. But there's higher education faculty that
could be pulled on also so that teaching is not so lonely as can feel
sometimes.
[00:17:02.72] You know that feeling when you're in the classroom and you
have a runner in your class. The child's left the classroom. What do you do?
You go over. You pick up the phone, and you call down to the administration
office. Nobody picks up. What do you do?
[00:17:16.92] You go to the teacher in the next room over. You say, I'm
missing Jackie or whoever it might be. Teacher says, I'm sorry, man. I really
got my hands full. What do you do, right? Are really tough, tough issues that
teachers face. And you're legally liable for, right, that class even when
others aren't there.
[00:17:38.04] So you're in a very vulnerable position. What I think is
really beautiful about what you two are offering through your podcasts is
you're offering a community.
[00:17:49.49] A community where people can talk about those really, really
hard things where you do need to have some courage and sometimes just to go
into the building the next day after something outrageous had happened. And
maybe you messed up, right?
[00:18:04.77] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right.
[00:18:05.72] DENNIS SHIRLEY: --to say, I'm sorry, I shouted at you. I
really did something out of turn. And courageous teachers can say that to a
whole class.
[00:18:15.05] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you, Dennis, for underscoring
that and showing that bravery and courage, it's ongoing. What are you-- Shawn,
what's your reaction to some of the things that you just heard Dennis talk
about, the research and being a his education experiences from that
perspective?
[00:18:34.18] And I worked in higher ed for 20 years as well. But I always
felt like I was a classroom teacher the whole time. But what do you think,
Shawn?
[00:18:43.46] SHAWN THOMAS: I think I really like what you're saying,
Dennis, about how you want to partner more with teachers. I graduated back in
the '90s. I've been around for a while. And it seemed very separate. And what
we learned in school didn't really transfer.
[00:18:58.50] I felt like as a beginning teacher, the things I learned were
so philosophical that I didn't know what I was doing. And so I think what
Dennis is saying about how we need to kind of make sure that we are-- that in
the colleges, the professors are actually doing-- answering the questions that
the teachers on the ground need.
[00:19:18.53] I think that is really important. I'm so glad to hear that
now. And what I see from the newer teachers coming out, they are having that
kind of experience. So that's the first thing which I feel like is just so much
better for our teachers coming out. They are going to be better prepared coming
into those schools.
[00:19:38.55] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you for under-- and I want to
point out something, Dennis, that from my experience when we were
collaborating, when I was at Boston College leading the student teaching
program, I found you to be so brave in that you co-taught a university master's
course with the first grade teacher.
[00:20:00.68] Like, when I put out this idea, this crazy idea to all the
professors in the education department, and I remember this, saying, let's get
closer to those teacher issues.
[00:20:13.09] Who wants to co-teach or invite even guest speakers from the
classroom to do what Shawn's talking about, talk about the scenarios that are
actually happening and put them in the context of the research and the
philosophy, which I think are very valuable?
[00:20:29.44] And in my memory, Dennis, I think you were the only professor
who did it. So what was that experience like co-teaching? Because you're very
philosophical, if I may say so. And you worked with a first grade teacher. Why
did you say yes?
[00:20:49.16] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Well, what are we even in this field for,
right? Life is short. Life is fleeting and very short. And we don't know how
long any of us have, right?
[00:21:03.68] So you kind of have to figure out-- I mean, higher education
is getting more and more, I'm just going to speak bluntly, messed up because
now there's all these ways of measuring professors productivity, which has to
do with how often other people cite their research.
[00:21:17.61] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right. Right.
[00:21:19.87] DENNIS SHIRLEY: But meanwhile, you have these student teachers
right in front of you. You have them going out into the schools. And, Carol, I
have to say, OK, maybe I had some courage, but you had stamina.
[00:21:31.71] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I did have stamina. I didn't take no
for an answer. Right.
[00:21:38.26] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Quarter of a century. How do you get a higher
education faculty excited about working cheek by jowl with classroom teachers?
You must be the world's biggest masochist.
[00:21:51.52] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: To try to bring the partners
together. Well, but you did it. What did you most enjoy about teaching,
co-teaching with a first grade teacher?
[00:22:00.21] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Well--
[00:22:01.40] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: What stood out?
[00:22:02.85] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Look, I'm curious.
[00:22:06.66] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah, you were-- OK.
[00:22:08.68] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Maybe part of bravery could be having the
humility to say that you don't know everything.
[00:22:14.34] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: All right. Yeah, you don't. Yeah.
[00:22:16.93] DENNIS SHIRLEY: And I mean, first grade teachers are so great.
One of the things, I know we're going to be getting to the practical stuff in a
little bit, but I'm very lucky. I've been able to do research on a lot of
different places. I was working in Ontario, Canada.
[00:22:30.53] This comes up in the book on well-being that I wrote with
Andy, Well-Being in Schools, with Andy Hargreaves. Think of the difference, if
you're a teacher or if you're a kid, or if you're a parent with referring to
students who have low test scores as marker students--
[00:22:48.40] --or bubble kids on the one hand, or referring to them as
students of wonder or students of mystery on the other hand. We don't know
what's going on in their minds. We really don't know. And so a practical thing
for all of us to do is to review our language.
[00:23:06.50] What's the language-- what are the labels we're putting on our
kids? And when you use a language-- I mean, it was so wonderful to listen to
these teachers talk because they'd say, well, I have a wondering. There's
something that's a mystery for me.
[00:23:22.12] And the language that we use can open up inquiry and
exploration, or it can shut it down. And honestly, I think just-- I'm not that
noble. I think I was getting a little bit bored with the self-imposed blinders
that we put on in higher ed.
[00:23:38.23] And the other thing, Carol, is I've been working for a number
of years in the schools before that team teaching happened. And this was really
great because I started hiring the teachers to teach some of the higher ed
classes on their own, and they started having the highest teaching evaluations.
[00:23:57.33] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, I forgot that you did that. Yes,
we started hiring the teachers. They were teaching the reading course-- OK,
Shawn, you got to weigh in on all this. What are you thinking about this
collaboration that Dennis and I did years ago that I think we need to resurface
with our listeners? What do you think?
[00:24:17.88] SHAWN THOMAS: That sounds amazing. I think that-- I really do
think that because I used to want to be a professor for that reason because I
wanted to go in and say this was what I got out of school, this is what I
experienced, and I want to share that with teachers that are in pre-service.
[00:24:33.90] So what you're talking about is exactly that. And having--
when I went to school in Auburn University, we had adjunct professors who were
current classroom teachers who came in. But I think even having--
[00:24:45.80] --instead of just having them teach a certain class and
professor teach a class, that co-teaching model I think it would be amazing for
so many students. But there was something that Dennis had said that had me
think of something, and I was like, oh, I want to talk about that. And now
it's--
[00:25:01.76] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: It'll come back. If it comes back,
bring it back. If it comes back, meant to be. We're going to shift a little
bit. Thank you both for this very invigorating conversation that kind of goes
in a lot of different ways about bravery.
[00:25:17.44] It's not just one incident. It's ongoing, just showing up. If
you're beginning teacher, being brave to show up every day. If you're a
professor, to reach out to schools and actually, let's do research on the
questions that relate to what's really going on in schools.
[00:25:36.54] And then having classroom teachers reach out to the
universities. So anybody listening, I hope our listeners will. If you're in a
college town, if you have student teachers, I think we need to say, come in.
Come in and help us.
[00:25:53.05] We need some research on this. We need some research on that.
Oh, OK, Shawn, what do you think? What do you think?
[00:26:01.61] SHAWN THOMAS: So I was thinking when Dennis was talking about
how we change the language and how we label students, and it made me think
about how it's so important for teachers to have an assets-based approach.
[00:26:15.07] We no longer call our students English language learners
because that's a deficit-based approach, saying what they're lacking. Now we
want to call them multilingual learners because we're saying what they are
bringing is an asset, and we are building and creating more assets for them. So
I think that that's important as Dennis was talking about the labels we use.
[00:26:35.64] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.
[00:26:36.24] SHAWN THOMAS: Try to remember to have that asset-based
approach, like you were saying, students of wonder, wondering what they're
thinking instead of that they're not doing that. So I think that's important--
[00:26:46.37] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.
[00:26:47.37] SHAWN THOMAS: --all of our teachers--
[00:26:48.51] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: --that--
[00:26:49.14] SHAWN THOMAS: --to have an asset-based approach.
[00:26:51.09] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, and I didn't even think of that
because I have a course that I help teacher with, and it's called ELL. Yeah,
English Language Learner. And I never thought-- thank you, I'm going to change
the course title.
[00:27:02.01] So this is-- but this is what happens when you have these
kinds of conversations. It looks like one little thing, but that brings up the
power of the words, which Dennis is into. So let's shift a bit.
[00:27:17.34] OK, our listeners are ready for some practical advice or some
strategies from all of the wisdom, Dennis, all the writing, all the research.
What do you have that you would like to share with the listeners that can make
their day better or that they can use to forward their teaching experience in a
successful way? What shows up for you?
[00:27:43.97] DENNIS SHIRLEY: So I'll just mention one thing that kind of
came up for some of my freshman college students this year, and that is that a
lot of them don't know why they're in the university and what they're doing.
[00:27:57.09] And they wanted to please their parents. They wanted to please
their teachers. And now they're sitting here, and what on earth are they doing
here? So students will say these kinds of things, right, kind of across the--
it's a human thing. What am I doing here? Why? What matters here?
[00:28:14.33] So you can do a very simple little exercise and to kind of
interrupt what you're doing or build it into a lesson, and it's called have
your students write purpose statements. Say, what's your purpose with your
life? What do you want to do? And then my students will challenge me.
[00:28:31.09] I teach a lot of football players sitting in the back of the
classroom who like to put me in the hot seat, right? So what's your purpose,
right? And so my purpose is to improve the human condition through education
and to love my friends and family, with all my might. Two things. Very simple,
but I didn't get it from a box. Right?
[00:28:55.85] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah, you got it from your heart.
That's a heart-centered statement. Yes.
[00:28:59.99] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Everybody has to spend time working on their
purpose statement, right? And if teachers can do this kind of thing, and this
is very much research supported, you get the motivations going again, right?
Say, you just have minor classroom management issues.
[00:29:23.14] Say, well, wait a minute, what are you here for, right? Let's
go back and look at your purpose statement. And really, it's very hard. And so
then the momentum starts coming from them, and it's an opportunity to get to
know the students kind of at any age or any grade level. So, Shawn, you're
teaching first graders or kindergartners?
[00:29:46.86] SHAWN THOMAS: Right now, I'm teaching multilingual learners.
And I particularly work with-- I typically work with fourth and fifth grade.
But I have taught all the grade levels. Yes.
[00:29:55.33] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Yeah. And I mean, at every level, kids are
kind of-- I mean, in kindergarten, that's the cutest, right, because they'll
just kind of blurt out anything and just make your day with some wonderful
little comment.
[00:30:10.86] I was one kindergarten class, and the teacher talking with the
kids about things that they like to collect. And one kid says, I know what you
like to collect. And the teacher says, well, what? What do I like to collect?
You like to collect children.
[00:30:29.92] [LAUGHTER]
[00:30:33.04] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: As they all have-- yeah, I love it.
[00:30:35.47] DENNIS SHIRLEY: It's been very perceptive.
[00:30:36.40] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, the students. And the teachers
too, though, need the purpose. It's the what's your why. We say, why are you
here? Why did you choose to become a teacher? Shawn shared, like, when she made
the decision.
[00:30:51.71] But I feel like we all revisit that over and over. OK, why am
I still here? Why am I still supporting teachers? Because I love it, and I can
see a need for us to have these conversations. And if that's what I can do,
that's my purpose right now.
[00:31:12.08] Shawn, what's your practical message that either builds on
Dennis' or how are you going to share with us what your wisdom?
[00:31:25.43] SHAWN THOMAS: Well, going back to what Dennis said is I
actually have a mission statement that I write out every morning. So I'm
wondering if that's something that maybe would help some of our students,
college students who are saying, why am I here, kind think about what is your
purpose.
[00:31:42.76] And it's a sentence. And I write it every morning to remind me
of what-- the type of person, how I want to be in this world. So that would be
a strategy, possibly. But what I was thinking is, is that every year, you're
going to have something that you feel probably unsure about.
[00:32:01.16] And when you're first teaching, it's going to be a lot of
different things. So what I would say is pick one area that you really want to
work on and improve. You can't do everything. And sometimes you feel like I
have to be the expert at everything, or I can't ask for help.
[00:32:18.83] But choose the one thing that you really want to get better on
and have a focus on that because that's how you will improve and change over
time. If you try to do everything, you're not going to be good at anything.
That would be my practical strategy.
[00:32:32.63] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And I'd like you to share with the
audience your hobby or interest in having your own podcast, which I have been a
guest a couple times, and I've thoroughly enjoyed it.
[00:32:46.62] I was with beginning teacher each time, and I really enjoyed
that conversation. But tell us the title, how this happened. Let's hear this
story.
[00:32:59.10] SHAWN THOMAS: Sure. So over on, formerly known as Twitter, now
X, there is a Tuesday night edchat. It's #EdChat where they just talk about
education issues and topics. And so I was one of the moderators for the chat,
and I was the co-host of the podcast that followed the chat.
[00:33:21.80] And then as the only moderator and co-host at the time who was
actually still teaching in the classroom, the producers of the band Radio
Network, which is where you can find the podcast, lots of different podcasts on
education, they asked me if I would be willing to host a--
[00:33:36.47] --podcast called We Just Want to Teach, which gives teaching
strategies, stories, tips and tricks just really to help provide some
information and some inspiration to teachers.
[00:33:49.47] And as you said, Carol, you're typically paired with the new
teacher because what I found was it's great having that person who's a veteran,
and that person who's new because after 28 years or 27 years, I can remember
some things.
[00:34:03.22] But it's nice to have someone who's brand new and to have
those questions that we can answer and support them with. So that's how I got
into that.
[00:34:11.33] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And you're still doing it--
[00:34:13.02] SHAWN THOMAS: And I'm still doing it.
[00:34:14.10] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: You're doing the fall. And OK, we'll
be in touch. I've got some ideas for you. Teaching with Light.
[00:34:20.41] SHAWN THOMAS: Yes, ma'am. I love it.
[00:34:22.05] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh my God. The time has gone by so
quickly. I love this. So I have just a few easy questions for the end of the
show. Everybody likes to know, like, OK, you two are pretty busy people. You
have a podcast. You're writing books, blah, blah, blah.
[00:34:38.01] Well, how do you stay inspired, motivated, healthy, balanced,
whatever you call it? Dennis, what do you do?
[00:34:45.16] DENNIS SHIRLEY: I dance.
[00:34:46.17] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: You dance. Alone, or are you dancing
with a partner? Tell me more. Ballroom dancing.
[00:34:53.74] DENNIS SHIRLEY: So I dance with my wife. I dance with my
daughter. I dance with friends. But I started-- there's a fun movie. It's
Richard Gere, Jennifer Lopez movie, Shall We Dance. And it's about a guy, like,
stuck in his mid-career in Chicago, and he just starts taking dance classes.
[00:35:10.57] And a lot of us live in our heads, and the body is something
for carrying the brain around in. But you kind get out on a dance floor, and I
very good instructors. I go to Arthur Murray Dance Studio nearby here. They're
all over the country.
[00:35:26.91] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Fun.
[00:35:27.91] DENNIS SHIRLEY: You get out there, and it's so funny because
I'll tell many people, well, I'm going to these dance classes and people say,
well, I'd love to do that, but I know how to dance.
[00:35:38.05] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: That's why you got to go to class.
[00:35:41.74] DENNIS SHIRLEY: So you can start working on-- there's a lot of
Latin dances that are very popular now so salsa, merengue, bachata.
[00:35:50.36] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Ooh, I can see you. Yes.
[00:35:52.56] DENNIS SHIRLEY: --all of those things, then waltz, if you
want, a jitterbug. You got all kinds of different things. But I think that for
me, the connection, the human connection without saying a word, but just
floating across that dance floor is just sublime.
[00:36:13.49] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love it. I love to dance. My
husband and I have taken lessons. We're not very good. And that's a judgment.
But we just love just going to the lessons. And I think we're getting better.
And I love the foxtrot. And we haven't gotten into the tango. That's a little--
what's your favorite dance, Dennis?
[00:36:35.90] DENNIS SHIRLEY: I'd say--
[00:36:36.96] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Do you have a favorite?
[00:36:37.47] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Yeah. Well, the ones that I'm having the most
fun with right now would be bachata, the rumba, and the waltz.
[00:36:44.88] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, the rumba. Yes, I love that. Yes.
All right. What do you think-- so what are you doing to stay inspired, Shawn?
[00:36:54.00] SHAWN THOMAS: So I go into my basement, and that's where I
work out. I get in daily, joyful movement, and it can be different things. But
I go into the basement by myself. Sometimes my puppy comes in the room and--
[00:37:06.97] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, what's your puppy-- what's your
puppy's name?
[00:37:09.62] SHAWN THOMAS: Miles. He's a miniature Schnauser. We call him a
little terroriser. He likes no one, but my husband and me. He tolerates our
son--
[00:37:17.38] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh my God.
[00:37:19.18] SHAWN THOMAS: --terrible. But I just go there and 30 minutes.
And I just-- I take care of myself, and I just decompress--
[00:37:27.09] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And move. And moving.
[00:37:28.91] SHAWN THOMAS: And moving your body moving. Yes.
[00:37:31.16] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: That's so interesting that you both
move, that our bodies help us to connect. So one thing I do that I've shared in
my other episodes is when I became the yoga teacher, I learned how to do a hand
mudras like yoga for your hands.
[00:37:46.49] And I discovered that just pausing for a few two minutes could
re-- that I didn't need 30 minutes. Like, I want to do that too. But the one
that we'll put into the description for this podcast so that you all can see it
is a two minute mudra called what is-- a mudra of well-being.
[00:38:11.63] So it kind of fits with this conversation, and it's moving the
negative thoughts away. So sometimes we have to literally move that to have
courage and to just get out of our heads, which sometimes, our minds will talk
us out of being brave very quickly.
[00:38:31.72] So I hope you and our listeners will take a look at that. All
right. We're winding down. And the next to last question is I want to talk
about change. Dick Elmore had this prompt, I used to think, and now I think. I
want our listeners and our beginning teachers to know that we do change over
time.
[00:38:52.37] We don't have to come into the profession with one idea, and
then that's it. So, Shawn, what did you used to think and now what do you
think?
[00:39:02.92] SHAWN THOMAS: I used to think that having parental support was
good. I would take it. But now I know that it takes more than just me and the
parents. It takes the entire village. That means your counselors. That means
your teammates on your grade level. It could be community members.
[00:39:20.98] It really makes a difference when you have that whole
community that's coming around our students and us as teachers, so that we're
all going to be doing our best. We can't do it by ourselves. We need to have
that support.
[00:39:35.62] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. And Dennis, I used to
think and now I think.
[00:39:40.59] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Oh, I think I used to think that educational
change was a lot easier than it turns out to be.
[00:39:45.70] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah.
[00:39:46.53] SHAWN THOMAS: Facts.
[00:39:47.75] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah.
[00:39:48.87] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Right. I used to kind of think, well, here's
what the research says about multilingual learners or kids with dyslexia or
these things, and now we just need to go do that. But I see that it's more
complex than that. And I see all of the human beings who are involved.
[00:40:06.78] So I try and draw inspiration from thinking, what have we got
in our public school system in the US? About 50 million kids, I think, last
time I checked in the 16,000 school districts. It's kind of amazing if you can
kind of think about it, that I know we have an enrollment crisis.
[00:40:24.54] We have all kinds of issues right now. But we've been through
a lot, especially in these last years. I'm thinking of COVID in particular. And
yet still, people get up in the morning. Kids get up. They go to school.
They're curious. They want to learn. They want to make something of themselves.
[00:40:40.38] And so I think I'm much less into what I think we should do
now and more curious about these generations keep on changing.
[00:40:55.61] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, they do. So being open to that.
So what do you want to celebrate, Dennis? Kind of in that vein, what do you
want to celebrate around education?
[00:41:07.29] DENNIS SHIRLEY: I celebrate the teachers who somehow managed
to teach online during the pandemic, who now are trying to figure out AI, who
are dealing with kids from all different kinds of backgrounds, all different
kinds of personalities and still manage to kind of get up there every day--
[00:41:26.53] --and do it with so much love and dedication and wisdom. So
many classical virtues. So I draw a lot of inspiration from the people that are
listening to this podcast. They don't have to do this. They could do something
else, but they want to improve their minds and are curious about what others
are thinking. And all of you.
[00:41:49.49] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. That's beautiful. Shawn,
the last word. What would you like to celebrate as we close out our Teacher to
Teacher podcast episode 8?
[00:42:00.79] SHAWN THOMAS: I would just love to share-- I want to piggyback
on what Dennis said is that the way I started with EdChat was I was just
listening to the podcast with my son on the way to school. And for the teachers
that are listening to podcasts who are picking up those PDs, who are taking
that initiative, I think we want to celebrate them.
[00:42:21.41] But we also want to remember that there are some people who
feel so overwhelmed, they don't know where to begin. So maybe share that little
thing that you have. Share EdChat. Share the Teacher to Teacher podcast. Share
the book Teaching with Life-- with Light, not life, excuse me.
[00:42:39.02] Share the thing that you have found so that others can learn
and be lifted up as well.
[00:42:46.69] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. And congratulations is in
order. I know that you're stepping into a new leadership position. Just kind of
say what that is so everybody can congratulate you.
[00:42:59.67] SHAWN THOMAS: Yes. So I'm currently a lead ML teacher, but I'm
actually going to be moving into more of a coaching role. It's called a
multilingual learner instructional specialist. And so I'm going to be going
into a school that's what we call high density.
[00:43:14.34] They have a lot of multilingual learners in their building and
really working with teachers to help support them by modeling lessons, by
working with them on how to make sure that their lessons are accessible for
students, that their assessments are actually accessible, and we can learn and
see what our students actually know.
[00:43:33.75] So I'm really excited about the opportunity to work and
hopefully impact more than just the students I see on my caseload, but all of
the students in an entire elementary school.
[00:43:43.77] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So you'll be mentoring. You'll be
doing teacher-- you'll be doing teacher leadership. You'll be-- your dream job.
[00:43:51.37] SHAWN THOMAS: It is my dream job.
[00:43:52.60] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: It's your dream job. So I want to say
to our listeners, thank you for tuning in to Teacher to Teacher with this
exciting conversation where we're bridging the gap between higher education and
K-12 schools.
[00:44:04.11] And I want to remind you to remember to stay inspired, stay
healthy, and don't forget to share your good news. Thank you to the guests
today. And I hope you will join us for episode 9, which is called "Dream
Out Loud," so you can create your own dream jobs. Thanks, everyone.
[00:44:26.65] SHAWN THOMAS: Thank you.
[00:44:28.05] [MUSIC PLAYING]
[00:44:28.72] PRESENTER 1: Thanks, everyone, for joining today's Teacher to
Teacher conversation. We hope this time together energized you, inspired you,
and reminded you why you chose to become a teacher. You can purchase any of
Carol's books and any books mentioned in the podcast online at www.corwin.com.
[00:44:45.41] Please leave a review and share this podcast with your
colleagues. Thank you for listening to the Corwin Teacher to Teacher podcast, a
place to share teacher wisdom and engage in authentic conversations with
experienced educators.
[00:44:58.94] PRESENTER 2: Come explore Corwin's free new teacher toolkit
and resources. We've curated these resources based on extensive research from
teachers, coaches, and principals alike. Whether you are brand new or a veteran
teacher, find ready to go teaching tools at corwin.com today.
Cathleen Beachboard
Rick Rogers
Carol Pelletier Radford
Carol received her Education Doctorate from the Harvard University Graduate School of Education, where she focused her studies on mentoring and teacher leadership. She is also a certified yoga teacher who practices meditation and shares mindfulness strategies with educators through her online courses and website. Her podcast Teaching With Light features the stories of teachers and inspirational leaders. Her next passion project is the creation of a Teacher Legacy Network, where retired teachers can share their wisdom with the next generation of teachers.
You can learn more about Carol, find free resources, videos, meditations, courses, and all of her books at mentoringinaction.com/.
Twitter: @MentorinAction
Facebook: @MentoringinAction4Teachers
Instagram: @cpradford
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