Be the Wave

[00:00:03.10] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Corwin's Teacher to Teacher Podcast with host Carol Pelletier Radford. Carol is an experienced classroom teacher and university educator, founder of mentoringinaction.com, and author of four bestselling professional books for teachers. She believes the best form of professional learning happens when teachers engage in authentic conversations and share their wisdom.

[00:00:23.99] In every episode, Carol and her guests share stories about pivotal moments in their careers, successful classroom strategies, and personal actions they take to minimize stress and stay healthy. The Teacher to Teacher Podcast is a place to engage in authentic conversation and reflection with experienced educators. We hope these conversations will energize you, keep you inspired, and remind you why you chose to become a teacher.

[00:00:49.32] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Welcome to season 3 of the Teacher to Teacher Podcast. I am your host, Carol Pelletier Radford. And I'm so happy to be part of this conversation today with two very experienced educators. The theme for season 3 is based on the book I wrote titled Teaching with Light-- 10 Lessons for Finding Wisdom, Balance, and Inspiration.

[00:01:14.56] Each of the 10 episodes for this season mirror the 10 lessons in the book, and all those lessons have stories that I wrote that reflect what was happening in my career as a public school teacher and then later in higher education.

[00:01:32.48] Today's episode is titled "Be the Wave." And I'm so happy to have Ben and Sara here today. I'm going to have them introduce themselves and share their K-12 experience and where they are today. So, Ben, let's start with you. You can share your first, last name, where you are, and how you got there.

[00:01:59.71] BEN KURTSYURUBA: Well, good afternoon or whatever time of day it is when you're listening. My name is Benjamin Kurtsyuruba, and I am a professor of educational leadership and policy, and school law at Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario, in Canada.

[00:02:16.90] I've been at Queen's for about 16 years now. And before that, I was at the University of Saskatchewan, where I did my master's and PhD in educational administration. And before that I was a teacher in Ukraine. I taught for two years grade 7 and 8, and also taught in the language acquisition school at the same time as teaching in the regular school.

[00:02:43.91] And my area in Ukraine was linguistics. And at some point, I decided that I was not interested in linguistics and I was more interested in learning about leadership, about administration and education. And that's why I made the move to Canada to Saskatoon, where I did my master's.

[00:03:07.13] And now you're helping a lot of teachers explore leadership. And we'll talk more about that because I'm very interested. And it's nice to hear you, Ben, and have you be part of this conversation. Sarah, let's hear your context and story of teaching and your role in higher Ed now.

[00:03:29.29] SARA BUSH: Thanks so much, Carol. And thanks for having me. I'm Sarah Bush. I'm excited to be here today. And first and foremost, I'm a teacher. I started my career as a middle school math teacher. Like then I also taught grade 7 and 8. And somewhere along the way, I decided that I wanted to teach teachers. And so I ended up getting my doctorate full-time while staying in the classroom.

[00:03:54.81] And it was really sad for me when I left the middle school classroom because I absolutely loved it. But I ended up going into higher Ed, where I work with teachers in the School of Education. Currently, I'm a professor of K-12 education and the Lockheed Martin Eminent Scholar Chair at the University of Central Florida in Orlando.

[00:04:15.45] I co-coordinate our PhD in math education and I also direct our Lockheed Martin UCF Mathematics and Science Academy. And I also run several grants here at UCF.

[00:04:27.84] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Wow. Thank you both. And I'm just going to share a little bit about my story since I kind of fit in with your journeys. I was a fifth grade teacher for 21 years and never thought I would leave the classroom and love teaching. But like you, Sarah, I became interested in student teachers that came to the school, and I was always mentoring them.

[00:04:51.91] And my first book was actually writing a book for the cooperating teacher so that all the cooperating teachers were actually doing similar things to create a common language because the experiences in the practicum was so different that I didn't feel comfortable with seeing teachers graduate that weren't getting the same mentoring. And then I taught at two different universities, and I love supporting teachers. And I can hear-- I can hear that in both of you.

[00:05:23.41] The title of this episode relates to a story in my life when I actually changed from to higher Ed institutions to work in a different place. And be the wave means many things to different people. But for me, it was kind of like going with the flow when things weren't really going my way, and I didn't anticipate some challenges.

[00:05:48.85] But I'd like to hear-- the listeners can hear my story and the description, but I'd like to hear what you each think the wave means when you heard that, and then we'll talk about a story or a time when you had to make a decision and maybe be the wave. So, Ben, what does be the wave mean to you when you heard that, and you knew that was your episode?

[00:06:13.26] BEN KURTSYURUBA: Well, I thought of a time in-- well, many years ago when I was in my master's, I was really interested in, as I mentioned, in leadership and learning about leadership. And my goal was to come to Canada, get my master's degree, go back to Ukraine and get married because I had a fiancee at that time.

[00:06:36.22] And at one point, we were just sitting with a friend of mine who has become a great friend. We were doing our master's together, and we had those cubicle offices. And we're just five or six cubicles away from each other. And he was saying, Ben, hey, it's about 7:00 PM, and he says, I'm applying for a PhD program. It's due tomorrow--

[00:06:58.91] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh my God, tomorrow.

[00:07:00.88] BEN KURTSYURUBA: Would you like to-- would you like to do it with me? And I said, well, I wasn't planning to. I was planning to finish my master's and go back to Ukraine and teach and see what I can do with my master's there. And he said, well, what do you have to lose?

[00:07:16.69] So I said, OK. So I had all of the files from my master's application ready. I just had to update a few things and I put in the proposal. And I got accepted. And that I think that was the wave that literally changed my whole career trajectory. I was never planning to be a professor or a teacher educator in Canada.

[00:07:41.84] And fast forwarding 22 years now, I am a teacher educator. I teach teachers, I work with aspiring teachers. I work with leaders in the education. I work with principals in the master's and the PhD program. And I work with scholars who learn about education, who aspire to be scholars and academics, and I help them in the doctoral program. So that wave took me to a totally different direction.

[00:08:12.89] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: It was a tidal wave.

[00:08:14.80] BEN KURTSYURUBA: It was a tsunami wave that took me.

[00:08:17.61] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: A tsunami, yes, because-- but here's the thing that I want the listeners to hear and that we-- I want to unpack a little is we make decisions sometimes. Well, you just have to trust like you had nothing to lose, but you had big changes because then, well, did you go back and marry your fiance? Is that your wife or did you meet somebody else? That's what everybody wants to know now.

[00:08:43.31] BEN KURTSYURUBA: No, I went back. Yeah, I went back. We got married, and I brought my wife back to Canada. And when I started-- no, for one year, I studied [INAUDIBLE] program. She had to finish her degrees in Ukraine. She is an accountant by profession. And so we got married after my coursework was done, and I was able to bring her to Canada and we been happily married for 20 years. We're just--

[00:09:05.73] [INTERPOSING VOICES]

[00:09:07.96] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I have goosebumps. That was a wave. That's a great be the wave story, where you had to just go with it like you just went with it.

[00:09:15.80] When I applied for the doctoral program, I was a fifth-grade teacher as well. And I did-- I commuted into Cambridge. I was not full-time. I was a part-time because I needed the funding to pay for the courses.

[00:09:29.66] And I negotiated with the superintendent so I could teach part-time. But I wanted that leadership piece that you aspired to early in your career. I had been teaching 20 years, and I was still wanting to help teachers be leaders. So it's so interesting that there's a parallel there. But my tsunami came later, and that totally changed my life when I had the doctorate because I could write and do things differently.

[00:09:59.72] So, Sarah, what's your story? What do you think be the way it means? Is it a tsunami tidal wave? Just a little ripple. Maybe it's an easy path. I don't know. What does it mean? And what's your story?

[00:10:14.41] SARA BUSH: Yeah. Well, I think, to me, being the wave is definitely about changing your life or creating change in your environment, but through kind of organic, flexible, and authentic approach. And so I will say, as far as getting my doctorate, I was probably a little bit more of a planner than both of you. But I will say, once I was in my program, things-- my interests grew much more organically.

[00:10:48.23] And an example of that kind of the story I wanted to share was, as I-- I think I mentioned earlier, I worked on my doctorate full time while I was still a middle school teacher. And one thing that kind of happened to me during that time is I just really developed a great interest in doing these big, authentic, integrated investigations in my math classroom, whether it was integration of math with art or math, with literature or math with other STEM disciplines, I was really just-- really got into thinking about current events in my community or current events you saw on TV and using those as launching points to engage students deeply in the mathematics.

[00:11:32.00] And as I was doing those, I kind of developed this cyclic approach of where I would develop something and I would test it out. And then I was kind of getting my doctorate at the same time. And so what I ended up doing was I would write-- I would start planning these more intentionally, and that would lead me to write these up as manuscripts, and I would then submit them for publication in some of the practitioner journals like the NCTM journals and the NSTDA journals.

[00:12:00.99] And I continued this while I was a new faculty member as well. And I would work with my like student, teachers, and pre-service teachers or current teachers I was teaching our master's program. And we would do things in their classrooms.

[00:12:13.62] But I think, for me, it was a big shift or change in my life because I noticed a need, but that's what sparked my interest that have stayed with me throughout my career because, in hindsight, kind of forcing myself to really think through these integrations really intentionally kind of provided a vehicle for me to think deeply how to break down those disciplinary silos and engage teachers and students and integrated or transdisciplinary STEM and STEAM.

[00:12:44.58] And that is really where my work has taken me for the past nearly 15 years. And so that was kind of an organic-- kind of be the way, but just kind of happened to me that I thought I would share.

[00:12:56.26] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Well, it's following that flow. It's that water can be a tsunami like Ben's, or it could just be like as you're using the word organic like just being in the change as it's happening and then just seeing where it's taking you because water goes in many different ways.

[00:13:15.86] What are you hearing, Ben, and what Sarah and I are talking about or what we're talking about today as far as-- I hear the leadership theme, now I'm hearing like, does everybody have to get a doctorate? I mean, the three of us are working in higher Ed. What would our listeners take away from this conversation that's important? What do you think?

[00:13:37.34] BEN KURTSYURUBA: Well, to me, what I'm hearing and what I saw in my own career and in my teaching career, and then teacher educator and professor career is the role of mentoring. The good friend of mine who recommended that I apply has become a great mentor as well.

[00:13:54.39] And both of us are in higher education, has been a department head for many years now. And both of us completed around the same time, applied for the same position. He got it. I didn't. I got-- but for me, mentoring has played a huge role.

[00:14:12.66] And although I was in the educational leadership field, my master's is focused on the role of supervision and mentoring in the beginning teachers. And that mentoring piece has stayed with me and has become my passion since then. And I'm deeply involved with International Mentoring Association and other mentoring programs, and I've initiated a lot of mentoring programs.

[00:14:37.23] So, to me, that mentoring is the piece that can change somebody's trajectory, somebody's direction and can be the guide sometimes a very abrupt change or it can be a slow guidance towards a slower curve in the career. To me, that meant a very abrupt change in my direction, and I'm thankful and grateful that happened. But it would not have happened without that mentoring piece.

[00:15:05.69] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: It's so interesting because mentoring is near and dear to my heart. Those are my books, my first book and mentoring in action. My website is mentoring in action. And I feel that's the leadership role that teachers in the classroom-- you don't have to get your doctorate unless you're drawn to do that. It's a different role.

[00:15:24.90] The writing and-- writing books or articles or whatever isn't for everybody. But I think people like us that are practitioners, we want to give teachers the research that they can use in their classrooms to make difference with the kids-- and the role of a mentor.

[00:15:45.69] Yeah, that's my whole heart. So thank you for saying that. And what do you think about mentoring, Sarah? How does that relate to your work, mentoring that theme?

[00:15:55.35] SARA BUSH: Yeah, I just love that. First of all, I think you lead from where you are, and you mentor from where you are. No matter if you're a first-year teacher, or you've been teaching for 40 years or you're in the classroom or you're in a coaching position or a district position or higher Ed, it doesn't matter.

[00:16:15.51] I think, the way you lead a mentor is you-- is that you do it in all whatever situation that you're in. I agree with Ben. I think that such a big part of our work is setting up mentoring structures within some of the programs we have so that we can-- kind of do two things for those in the programs help them think about how their lives can be in ways they didn't even imagine, but also think it is about, at least in my work, developing the next generation of STEM education leaders because it's really through everyone becoming a mentor to others, that the impact is exponential.

[00:17:10.57] And so I love that the conversation has kind of gone into mentoring because whether we know it or not, whatever role you're in, someone's probably looking up to you in some way, and you're a mentor to them. And so it's something to constantly be thinking about.

[00:17:29.23] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. Thank you both for bringing that up and having the water take us in different ways when we spin the conversation to what's important. Our listeners always like to get some practical strategies out of the podcast. And you both work in practical ways with your own work.

[00:17:53.58] So what are some takeaways? I know Ben-- I'm most familiar with the wellbeing book and you have the leadership. So what do you want to share? Share some of your books and what you're working on and then maybe a couple of takeaways that our listeners can learn from what you're doing.

[00:18:14.54] BEN KURTSYURUBA: Thanks, Carol. Well, first and foremost, I'm still a teacher in my heart, although I'm a teacher educator. 50% of my role is related to teaching, if not more. And so one of the practical strategies that I find very helpful for myself is leading or learning to lead in the area where you're placed. As Sarah said, lead from wherever you are.

[00:18:45.92] And so one of the strategies that I used in my own work and also I encourage my students to do, is to learn and develop the leadership capacities as soon as possible. When they are in their teaching role, when they start as an occasional teacher or maybe a beginning teacher, I encourage them to be that teacher leader right away.

[00:19:12.65] And for many of them, one of the ideas that I hear loud and clear from them before they change their mind a little bit is, no, I can't be a leader because I'm just a beginning teacher. And for me, that is not a right or correct way for them to start their career because they can be the leaders. They have so much capacity and potential, and they bring a lot of innovation into the school.

[00:19:40.93] So I encourage them to use that capacity in the skills that they have developed as part of their teacher education program to lead from where they are. And also encourage them to find a mentor, whether it's a mentor in their professional life or in their personal life, and encourage them to do those two things.

[00:20:01.96] Start developing your leadership capacity and your leadership skills and using them to lead others, but also find mentorship and also be the mentor. I've had a couple of my students who have become mentors to other beginning teachers in their second year. They're still in their beginning teacher career, but they have become mentors. And that really encourages me as a teacher educator that they do that. So those two practical suggestions that I find useful in my teacher education work.

[00:20:35.64] Another practical suggestion that I would like to offer, or one of the practical strategies is related to both of those two points, the leadership and mentoring. In the last six or seven years, I've been working in the wellbeing area with-- looked at wellbeing capacity for pre-service teachers wellbeing of principals, wellbeing of teachers, beginning teachers as well as seasoned teachers. And one of the things that we found is that wellbeing is taken for granted. And you don't notice that wellbeing is gone until it's gone.

[00:21:11.86] And so teachers do not build in wellbeing strategies into their careers, whether at the beginning of their career or as being in the mid to late career. Unless you do that, you will, as a teacher, find that you are stressed more, you can burn out easily and faster. And so building those wellbeing strategies early on in the teaching career would be instrumental.

[00:21:43.93] And to that, we-- to that goal, we have recently started the work on mentoring for wellbeing and we have three books coming out, not with Corwin but another publisher. But you're still-- I would recommend you check them out. But the first book that came out, and actually Carol contributed a chapter to that book is called Mentoring for Wellbeing in Schools.

[00:22:05.61] I've written it with my mentor, Dr. Frances Kochan, who has been a lead mentor expert around the world for many years. It's a collection of stories for beginning teachers for mid to late. Career teachers and others principals, how we can build mentoring-- wellbeing in schools through mentoring. And that's one of those strategies that I would recommend that each of us, whether we're in schools or in higher education, pay attention to.

[00:22:37.62] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you so much. And it was such an honor to be part of that book. And it really forced me when you have to write-- as Sarah talks about when you're writing organically, like, well, what's my message?

[00:22:48.13] And this podcast is about wellbeing. It's teaching with light. Teaching light is our wellbeing. It's who we are, and we don't want to bury that by just doing the curriculum of the school and being a robot. We're human beings that need to be nurtured.

[00:23:08.79] But I'm hearing what you're saying, Ben. We have to notice it ourselves too. And we, as beginning teachers, what I'm hearing is practical. A beginning teacher has to be willing to ask for help to reach out and find a mentor if there isn't. And you can have more than one mentor.

[00:23:25.19] I encourage people-- have a content mentor, have a wellbeing mentor, have a practical strategies mentor. There are so many teachers at the school, and they do want to help and everybody doesn't want to be a formal mentor, but they do want to help. And mentoring is different than orienting somebody to the school. It's different.

[00:23:45.59] So Sarah, react to what you just heard us kind of say and then slide your practical the way in which you contribute so much-- six books and so much from your wisdom. Contribute to this conversation in your way.

[00:24:05.17] SARA BUSH: Well, honestly, I'm still reflecting on so much that you all just said. I just love it. I love then how you just suggested that everyone find a mentor. And I mean, my mentors have completely changed my life. And there are some of my most favorite humans in the whole world, and I just love them.

[00:24:23.93] And so I honestly think there's nothing more powerful than having a great mentor. And it's also very fulfilling when you can then pay it forward and do that for others. And so I just love where this conversation is going. I also feel like I want to take all your wellbeing trainings. And all of that just sounds so wonderful.

[00:24:50.39] And I really like what you said about maybe finding different mentors for different reasons or different topics within your world. And I think there's a lot to be said about that because we really learn best from different perspectives and diverse perspectives and sometimes you need this kind of sounding board.

[00:25:14.68] And sometimes you need something a little different. So I do think it's really great. And also learning different perspectives helps you solidify your own belief system over time as you continue to grow in whatever it is that you're-- whatever role and whatever it is that you're doing.

[00:25:32.02] So when I was thinking kind of getting ready for today, thinking about practical strategies for teachers. And I was thinking about the different publications I have with Corwin, which is really kind of in three pockets. We have our Math Pack series, which is focused on systemic change and schools and districts focused on coherence and cohesion.

[00:25:57.08] And then I have Step into STEAM book, which is focused on K-5. We have a second edition of that coming out in a few months. And then we also have the Simplifying Stem series, which we have a elementary and a middle secondary. And I was trying to think of a common thread between all of those.

[00:26:16.47] And I think the common message is to just get started. And it kind of fits the theme of today be the wave because in all three sets of books, there's really a focus on not top-down change, but organic conversational kind of mindset shifts that-- and really be great waves that we make in our schools and our settings.

[00:26:49.41] And through the work in these series, we've worked with so many teachers and schools and leaders and districts. And I think some overall themes of that are to just get started. Worry about progress, not perfection.

[00:27:04.76] Nothing in our world of education, like the goal should not be perfection. It's just progress and moving things along and just leading from where you are and building momentum, starting with-- getting started in a place where you can really build some consensus and build some momentum, and that really inspires others to want to keep moving and doing what's best for children and students.

[00:27:32.50] So I love that. Thank you. Any reaction, Ben, to the approach and the theme that Sarah's offering us?

[00:27:43.53] BEN KURTSYURUBA: Well, I just love how Sarah built in the resources that you've developed, and I find that as very helpful for the beginning teachers, especially aspiring teachers and the teacher education. They're so hungry for the resources. If they have the right resources-- if they have the right tools, that is so much easier for them to get their career off the ground and get off on the right foot. So to--

[00:28:15.06] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Be successful. Yes. And even the more experienced teachers, I think, are finding your work to be more clear, like giving more clear steps. So thank you for offering that to all of us, Sarah, and Ben for contextualizing mentoring and leadership. So altogether we're in a good place. I love this. I love the way this conversation landed.

[00:28:45.32] So we're ready to wind down-- it went by so quickly. So I have a few more questions for you. One is always like, what keeps you inspired? Like, how do you-- we say wellbeing, Ben, but then we're all working really hard. Here we are doing podcasts, writing books, writing articles. We're burning ourselves out.

[00:29:04.64] Not really, but we do-- we have to pay attention if we're leaders, helping leaders to model what we're asking other people to do. So Ben, what do you enjoy doing that feeds you? Like what's your secret sauce? Like, what do you do?

[00:29:24.76] BEN KURTSYURUBA: I don't think I have a secret sauce. But something that helps me, although I am inspired by work. I'm inspired by my teaching, my students-- something that really inspires me success stories from my teacher candidates when they on practicum or when they graduate.

[00:29:45.79] A couple of months ago, I met a former student of mine, and we were just chatting, and she was sharing about her success. And that's what really inspires me and work that I do, the books that I publish and papers that inspires me.

[00:29:59.76] But what I really try to pay attention to myself, given my work in the wellbeing, is trying to find that work-life balance. Although you can't find the perfect work-life balance. But what I do and what works for me is I try to disconnect. I spend time with my family or go to the lake. I love canoeing, kayaking, boating, something that takes me away from work.

[00:30:25.72] And we find that also in our research on teacher wellbeing. If they build something into their everyday life that takes them away from work, you can always take your homework home, and that adds to the imbalance that you can create.

[00:30:43.57] And what I'm hearing in our research from teacher candidates and from teachers and principals, we've done a lot of work with principals. Is that work-life balance and paying attention to times that make you a disconnect, that make you forget about your work and find the flow outside of work, not necessarily the flow-- that inspires me the most.

[00:31:12.37] And so given that we're in the summer period where as we're recording it, I'm just coming back from a vacation. And I feel inspired because I was able to disconnect and spend more time with the family, with kids and my wife and outside outdoors. And that's been really energizing-- has energized me a lot in my work.

[00:31:33.64] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: That's great. And you mentioned kayaking, canoeing, so we're back to the water again. One of the things that I do-- I'm a yoga teacher. I completed yoga teacher training and where I really connected were hand mudras. And we'll put one in the description for this podcast. And it's interesting for be the wave.

[00:31:55.84] I chose a Mudra called Jala mudra, which is touching your thumb to your baby finger, your small finger and having three-- your other three fingers just out. I know I filmed it on the ocean. So you've got to watch it. It's really relaxing and sometimes just that two it's two minutes. It's just two minutes.

[00:32:22.67] Sometimes we can't go to the lake. So I find that I have to disconnect and rewire my brain to get the energy to do what I have to do next. So what do you do, Sarah, to stay-- keep your wellbeing going?

[00:32:40.49] SARA BUSH: I definitely see some similarities here. I would say, to me, there's two pockets of well-being. There's well-being when I am in my professional role, things that I do. And then there's the, How do I disconnect from that facet of well-being?

[00:33:00.42] And so, within my professional environment, I stay inspired. I think it's all about who you surround yourself with and being around those that keep you motivated, that are doing exciting things so that you're excited. And often, for me, it's my students because-- when they get excited about wanting to take it to the next level and do something that's contagious, and you've got to get on board, and you've got to be really excited. And the same with my colleagues.

[00:33:33.32] I love it that my colleagues push me and challenge me. And those things are good for my well-being within my professional world. The way that I disconnect a bit from my professional world is some of the similar things that you all do. I really enjoy being outside in nature.

[00:33:56.59] I do my best thinking when I'm walking or when I'm exercising. I really love to do group classes. I go to a bar studio. And trust me, you definitely do not have to be a ballerina to do both.

[00:34:09.79] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I know. That looks hard. That looks hard. [LAUGHS]

[00:34:12.90] SARA BUSH: It's such a great workout. And I think the other thing I try to do is just keep the things that might be going on in my world professionally, just keep it into perspective. Is this really going to be a big deal in a week from now?

[00:34:31.77] Am I even going to remember this happened in a year? And really, just letting the small things go really helps with stress. And then the other thing that I think is good for us all to adapt is just try to laugh instead of cry when you can, when things happen.

[00:34:49.25] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes. What can we do?

[00:34:51.11] SARA BUSH: Those are just some of the things, yeah. So those are just a few things. [LAUGHS]

[00:34:54.59] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that. So the last, I want to ask each of you-- I think it's important that teachers and our listeners remember that we make decisions out of stories, or some things might happen in a moment, or you might plan something, but we change over time. I notice some of my thinking has changed, and that's not a bad thing. Some doesn't change.

[00:35:17.76] I look at my philosophy of education that I wrote years ago. I read it last week. I'm like, oh my god! It's the same. I still feel what I wrote.

[00:35:27.42] But then, I look at other things, and I go, Wow, I used to think this and now I think this. And I think it's important for us to articulate that so that we don't stay stuck. So Ben, this is Richard Elmore's prompt that I got in one of my classes. What did you use to think, and what do you think now that applies to this conversation?

[00:35:52.97] BEN KURTSYURUBA: Well, in line with something that I've already shared about mentoring and leadership, I used to think, and I see that in a lot of my students-- I used to think that you need to establish yourself as a leader first, as a teacher first before you can be a teacher leader. You need to establish yourself as a teacher first before you can be a mentor.

[00:36:14.76] And now I think that you can lead early. You can be a teacher leader right from the get-go. You don't need to establish yourself as a leader to lead.

[00:36:27.36] You can lead in small ways. You can make the change in others' lives and teaching through your actions, through your suggestions, through your mentoring. And the same for mentoring.

[00:36:39.12] As I mentioned, some of my students mentor beginning teachers in their second year already. And that's a change that I hope that I've inspired them to take on because of the change in my own thinking. And hopefully, that has caused a bit of a ripple effect in their lives as well.

[00:36:57.42] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that. What about you, Sarah? What did you use to think, and what do you think now?

[00:37:04.47] SARA BUSH: I think when I was a newer teacher, I definitely-- well, I didn't think I had to have all the answers. I felt like I should have most of them, and then maybe things needed to be a certain way.

[00:37:22.45] And over time, not only have I just gotten more and more comfortable not knowing and being OK not knowing, but also I just think that our world is changing so fast, and information is changing and is so great that it's really impossible to keep up or to be an expert in it all. So I think-- now I think that the goal is not to know everything.

[00:37:52.16] I think the goal is to stay curious and be constantly open to change and just-- everything in our world is evolving, how we work, what school looks like. I think just be constantly open to change, and evolving is now the key.

[00:38:11.24] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you so much. And we're going to end this podcast, by the way, I always do, with-- I was inspired by John Krasinski's show during COVID.

[00:38:21.53] Some good news. It's like we were all not having good news. [LAUGHS] And I just enjoyed it because, as Sarah said, it made me laugh, and it kept us present.

[00:38:32.64] And there is good news, like in educators. As educators, we tend to look at where the gaps are. That's always my thing.

[00:38:40.98] What's missing? What can I-- how can I fill this gap? How can I help this or that? So I'd like to end the show where you each get to share some good news that's happening in your world that you want our audience to acknowledge you for. So Ben, what's some good news?

[00:38:59.72] BEN KURTSYURUBA: Well, some of the good news is that we've seen the application of a lot of our research on teacher well-being in our work, through our work, and dissemination of our work. And we're happy to have what we call a research forum and educator well-being. And I'm going to share the link with Carol, and hopefully, it could be shared online with those interested.

[00:39:23.22] And it's the research forum, not just for academics or scholars, but for the practitioners. This can be in beautiful Kelowna, beautiful British Columbia, in October. So if you're interested and you would like to attend and learn about strategies for well-being that are research-based but also practice-oriented, you can take and apply. --so those practical strategies. So that's what's happening that is good in my professional life.

[00:39:51.56] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Why don't you share about International Mentoring Association, too? Let's give a little commercial for that you're-- I think you're going to be a leader in the international--

[00:40:01.42] BEN KURTSYURUBA: Yes.

[00:40:02.00] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And people might want to go to this conference. So let's get that link into our podcast here. Say a little bit.

[00:40:10.13] BEN KURTSYURUBA: For sure. I'll have a privilege of being a president-elect right now with the International Mentoring Association, which is a great organization that I've become a part of in 2017. And I have really benefited and enjoyed being a part of the organization that brings together mentoring scholars and practitioners. And I'm happy to be leading it in a few years and co-leading it right now with the President Lisa Fain.

[00:40:37.52] And we will have a conference, an IMA conference, in 2026. So we're not sure about the location yet, but it will be most probably in Florida. And we're hoping that you can join the IMA. Carol is--

[00:40:56.04] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.

[00:40:56.36] BEN KURTSYURUBA: --part of the IMA.

[00:40:57.35] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Let's put the link. We'll put the link to the website so then everyone can-- the listeners can follow what's happening with IMA and be part of it. Because, as you said, Ben, everyone's a mentor. We don't have to wait.

[00:41:12.75] Beginning teachers can come to the mentoring conference. And what's your good news? What's going on with you, Sarah?

[00:41:21.08] SARA BUSH: Well, I would say, most recently, the thing here in August that just had me so excited was in one of the grants that I run at UCF. It's an NSF Noyce grant called Empowering STEM Teachers with Earned Doctorates. And we work with a group of K-8 mathematics teacher leaders here in our local school district, and they're called Fellows.

[00:41:42.54] And after working with them for three years as a cohort, they all graduated with their doctorates just a little over a week ago, all together as a cohort. And they are amazing. They are 14 most amazing mathematics teacher leaders. They represent their schools, their districts, us, the project so well, and we just adore them.

[00:42:10.89] And so we are just-- my colleagues and I are just so happy. We had the best three days celebrating with them, and all of our college and University events and other means that we did. And it was just the most special three days.

[00:42:27.39] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: That's wonderful.

[00:42:27.98] SARA BUSH: I just loved every minute of it.

[00:42:29.17] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And I'm sure you had a lot to do with them all graduating. As Ben knows, pushing through a doctorate, getting to the end, the finish line is always a challenge.

[00:42:41.08] SARA BUSH: Not just me, but I will say my colleagues and I read a lot of dissertations for meetings.

[00:42:46.86] [LAUGHTER]

[00:42:49.53] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. This was so inspiring, and I really enjoyed the conversation. To our listeners, I want to say thank you for tuning in to the Teacher to Teacher podcast. And remember to stay inspired, stay healthy, and don't forget to share your good news.

[00:43:08.04] Thank you to our guest today. And, oh, our next episode, episode 8, is titled "Always be Brave." So I look forward to that conversation with all of you. Thank you, and we're signing off.

[00:43:26.45] [UPBEAT MUSIC]

[00:43:27.34] MALE ANNOUNCER: Thanks, everyone, for joining today's teacher-to-teacher conversation. We hope this time together energized you, inspired you, and reminded you why you chose to become a teacher. You can purchase any of Carol's books and any books mentioned in the podcast online at www.corwin.com.

[00:43:43.69] Please leave a review and share this podcast with your colleagues. Thank you for listening to the Corwin Teacher to Teacher podcast, a place to share teacher wisdom and engage in authentic conversations with experienced educators.

[00:43:57.74] FEMALE ANNOUNCER: Come Explorer, Corwin's free new teacher toolkit and resources. We've curated these resources based on extensive research from teachers, coaches, and principals alike. Whether you are brand new or a veteran teacher, find ready-to-go teaching tools at corwin.com today.