Series 4 Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast

[00:00:00.42] NARRATOR: Welcome to Corwin's Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast with host Peter Dewitt. This podcast is from Education Leaders for Education Leaders. Every week Peter and our guests get together to share ideas, put research into practice, and ensure every student is learning not by chance but by design.

[00:00:19.12] TANYA GHANS: Hi, Peter. Welcome to another edition of Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast. As always, it's the fall and new things are happening, and seasons are changing. And I'm still thrilled to be learning alongside you.

[00:00:33.77] PETER DEWITT: Oh, thank you, Tanya. It's always good to see you and spend some time with you. Yeah, you know, I really-- this is something we were saying to the guest when we were off air, but I think it's fair for listeners to understand what we're doing as you and I work together.

[00:00:50.25] So we did season three and season four together. And one of the things that we're trying to do is bring together a lot of different types of people. Yes, it's the Corwin Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast. And today we have Debbie Zacarian who is a Corwin author. But we also this season have explored different discussions with people who are not Corwin authors yet. I'm just going to say yet because I feel like I want to just put my hook in and bring them in, especially after these conversations we're having.

[00:01:20.89] But also just interviewed people. In this season we interviewed Michael Fallen and Joanna Rosato who actually wrote a guest blog for me for finding common ground. So I think what I'm excited about when we're putting the season together is that you and I are coming at it from different perspectives. And we're trying to make sure those perspectives are heard on the podcast. So I'm really excited.

[00:01:46.76] TANYA GHANS: Yeah. I mean, we're-- I think what's true about us both is that we really want to amplify-- a word that's a little overused these days, but it works-- amplify great ideas. Almost no matter their source, because we just know how important it is for the field and for our listeners. So totally agree.

[00:02:05.51] PETER DEWITT: So what are the things that were-- I mean, speaking of segways-- because I think this is a good segue into the discussion today-- the guest is Debbie Zacarian. And Debbie has a long and illustrious career as a school leader and professor and everything. And she's quite the researcher. And she does a lot of work with multilingual learners, and that's what we're going to be able to talk about today.

[00:02:33.75] I should say she works with school leaders. She has for a very long time. But multilingual learners. And one of the things that I enjoy about this conversation is that Debbie gets into the whole idea of the strengths-based approach.

[00:02:47.43] And I think one of the things that we, obviously, talk about in the discussion is the fact that so often when people are talking about multilingual learners, they-- especially if they're on the outside looking in, maybe they don't necessarily work with students-- they have a deficit mindset. Oh, you can't speak English so-- and they have a deficit mindset.

[00:03:09.13] And one of the things that Debbie really wants to explore and has done quite well is that of a strengths-based approach, which I know sounds like common sense, but the reality is it just hasn't been the way people have approached multilingual learners in the past. So that's what I'm excited for people to hear when it comes to this conversation.

[00:03:27.60] TANYA GHANS: Yeah. I mean, me too. To add on to that point, thinking about why it's so hard for that to stick-- and, listeners, if I've mentioned this before, forgive me-- but there really does seem to be something about how we as a species are hardwired to look at the negative and look for what's wrong. It's what kept us from being eaten by the lion--

[00:03:47.00] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, exactly.

[00:03:48.09] TANYA GHANS: --10,000 years ago. But we're not in that position anymore. But I think it does require a lot of vigilance and reminding because when you're at that table making decisions for children, and you get data-- some data that doesn't look great to you, it can be very hard to forget what we now know about strengths and assets and keeping that at the forefront. So I love discussions like these because I think it just helps keeping-- keep this, again, at the top of everyone's mind. So this is a great conversation for that.

[00:04:20.46] PETER DEWITT: All right, everybody. Well, happy listening to my interview with Debbie Zacarian.

[00:04:25.93] TANYA GHANS: OK. Enjoy, everyone.

[00:04:31.18] PETER DEWITT: Debbie Zacarian, welcome to the Leaders-- Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast. I almost forgot the name of the podcast. That would have been bad, right? How are you?

[00:04:40.09] DEBBIE ZACARIAN: I'm well, thank you. And thank you for having me.

[00:04:42.76] PETER DEWITT: Of course. It's always-- we've interviewed with each other once before on Leaders Coaching Leaders so it's nice to be able to do it again. And this is kind of an exciting one for you because you've got a second edition of a book coming out on transforming schools for multilingual learners. So talk to me a little bit about that. Like, what-- I always wonder what leads from that first edition to the second edition. Let's at least start with that piece.

[00:05:08.92] DEBBIE ZACARIAN: Oh, sure, sure. Yeah, this one-- that was really fun. The first edition came out in 2011. And it included the most up to date regulations and the principles around creating successful programming for the nation's English learners. And it presented the research and the principles, and a kind of a helpful guide for anyone involved in this work.

[00:05:37.65] So what was really great is it gave me the opportunity to share the key legal cases and historical events that have led up to these laws, and how to put them in play. And I had the privilege of the book being used pretty widely across the nation by various state education agencies, school districts, and schools.

[00:05:59.51] And I had the privilege of presenting across the nation on this topic of how do we really transform our schools so that our English-- then called English learners, now called, gratefully, multilingual learners-- to use an asset-based approach.

[00:06:14.12] And what I found over the past 10 years is a lot of educators were asking me questions about what about now? There are some changes that happen. Do you think you're going to be writing a second edition of this book that we've been using? So my editor at Corwin who I think you know, Dan Alpert asked if I would write a second edition to the book.

[00:06:35.93] And that led to this really reviewing what I had written, thinking seriously about what others had shared with me that I had done-- work I had done with state education agencies and districts. And thinking about, well, what should be infused.

[00:06:52.70] And what has happened in the past 10 years are five big changes surrounding the work we do with students. So the book really infuses those changes throughout. And the new edition infuses and integrates these through the book.

[00:07:10.19] And to make sure that I was-- I want to say it's up to date, current, and also scholarly as possible. I contacted leading scholars in the field to affirm that what I was writing was actually what their most recent publications were. And I had the privilege of working with some really well-known scholars in the field, both in the legal realm as well as the policies and practice-- policies, practice, and principles.

[00:07:39.24] And then because it's so wonderful to sort of contact school districts-- and specifically people who are implementing the ideas we're all talking and writing about-- so I contacted various people from across the country. And I highlight them-- including some students-- and what does it mean and what would this look like and why should I think about these things.

[00:08:02.84] PETER DEWITT: So you were talking about the five big changes. And there has been a lot that's been going on over the past 10 years. And I work in schools that have high poverty, and they also have a high-low rates. And so what are these five big changes that you are looking at when it comes to this population of students?

[00:08:22.46] DEBBIE ZACARIAN: Oh, sure. I think, first, there-- in 2015 there were two federal initiatives. One is called the famous Dear Colleague Letter that was sent from the Department of Justice and Department of Education to all state education agencies in all public districts and schools about what our legal obligations are for being in compliance. That was a big letter.

[00:08:57.08] And it described, dear colleague, here are the laws and regulations on what needs to be implemented. And what's big about that is it was the first of its kind. The laws have been in place since 1974. And had been amplified by various acts, from Elementary and Secondary Education Act to No Child Left Behind, Race to the Top, and so forth.

[00:09:23.04] So why did this letter come out in 2015? It just seemed-- it didn't change the laws, it amplified them. And the reason was so many school districts were failing its multilingual learners. And state education agencies in a sense are the monitor agent of the federal law. So they sent the letter to them as well saying, the schools that you're monitoring are doing well. And we need to all beef up the work that we're doing.

[00:09:51.91] So that's one huge change of this letter came out. It went to everyone. And it really said, we need to do this. This is the law. And it's not happening so here's what we need to do. The other is the field itself has dramatically changed from using a deficit-based or what we perceive kids as not doing, to really looking at what are the strengths and assets that students and their families bring in that we do too.

[00:10:19.95] And the research on this has been very strong and very proven and very demonstrated. Yet in 2011, it wasn't as prominent. Even though the original book really focuses on what students know and are able to do, now it's much more amplified. So I present the current research and references on why it's important with multilingual learners and what that brings.

[00:10:43.37] PETER DEWITT: So let's talk about that a little bit because one of my concerns these days is when we're hearing about COVID learning loss. We started to hear that very early on during COVID. And it's not that in some ways it's not a real thing, it's just that I worry about how it's going to exacerbate the issue by everything. It's going to become a COVID learning loss. And what that creates is a deficit mindset.

[00:11:06.52] And I think that we've always-- I think there are teachers and leaders who have always had deficit mindsets towards certain populations. We know they've had a deficit mindset based on race, gender, socioeconomic status, and those kind of things.

[00:11:23.26] So when you're looking at that deficit mindset and you're talking about how you're doing a strengths-based approach, talk to me a little bit about what that's going to look like because it's-- like I-- in some schools that I'm working in, they start working with the population because there is a deficit. And that's what catches their eye and almost pressures them into that work.

[00:11:45.15] So what's the strength-based approach? And how that's going to help with-- how is that going to help with the whole deficit mindset around COVID learning loss as well? Which we know this is a population that has certainly suffered from that COVID learning loss kind of mentality as well.

[00:11:59.97] DEBBIE ZACARIAN: Yeah. I think those are really important questions. And I appreciate your asking them because, certainly, a lot of articles that were reading are using that term, COVID learning loss. And so what it does is it puts us in the mindset of what's missing or isn't happening, or helps us perpetuate this feeling of helplessness and hopelessness.

[00:12:20.61] And if we look to the research, even as far back as the '90s and Maslow's research on positive psychology, what happens when we look, we acknowledge, yes, there-- students have experienced a lot of challenge. However, students possess inherently or through experiencing these challenges a lot of strengths, resilience, and capacity to have a depth of understanding in ways that we might not be-- we might have not yet thought of.

[00:12:51.51] An example that I like to reference is I live in a college university town where I taught. And I have the privilege of being in the same town as Amherst College, a very prominent college. And when COVID happened and school closed, some of the college kids went to their parent's ginormous summer home. And they rode out COVID in this beautiful, idyllic setting. Whereas other students went to help their parents whose restaurants closed and now they had food trucks to try and help the families just simply stay afloat.

[00:13:26.28] And so that dynamic difference between the student whose family is so darn wealthy, they can live in a summer palace versus a student who's with their family in a food truck. Well, we might say, oh, lucky student in the palace, poor student in the food truck. When in reality the student in the food truck is really experiencing a lot of positives that if only we had asked them about them.

[00:13:50.80] And this field or the field of multilingual learners is quite strong and helping us see the student strengths, especially because it's so well-known for students with limited and interrupted education. So in a certain sense, educators should be looking toward this field because we've done so much research on what happens when students have interrupted education and what seems to work the most successfully.

[00:14:15.03] And what works the most successfully through the research is identifying students' experiences in a positive way, the strengths they've gained from them, and really infusing them into all we do. And an example that I often use is a student that hasn't been privileged into an education, hasn't had much in the way of educational experiences, and worked on their uncle's bus collecting tickets and issuing change.

[00:14:44.56] So people would get on the bus, he would give them change. For they'd give him money and he would add up the money in his head and give them change. Well, here's a kid who's never been exposed to a math class or formal education but has depth of knowledge about currency and adding and subtracting and so on and so forth.

[00:15:04.19] So when it comes to us-- as, let's say, an elementary student-- and we say, oh, that poor student hasn't been to school, and he doesn't have this, he doesn't have that, we can miss the vast depth of knowledge that he has in mathematics. And that's what we should really be doing, not learning loss.

[00:15:21.76] We should pay attention to that. But we should really be paying as much focused attention on what students have and possess and their strengths and assets, hopes, desires, and interests. And when we tap into those, we have a far better chance of being successful in helping them flourish.

[00:15:38.19] PETER DEWITT: Well, I've always-- and I totally agree because I've always felt like multilingual learners-- I mean, I will go to-- I remember I was in Holland one time and-- I was in Amsterdam and the server who was serving us lunch apologized for her English which wasn't very good. And I'm sitting in the middle of Amsterdam thinking, you shouldn't be apologizing to me. I should be apologizing to you. But what always amazes me is people just switch back and forth.

[00:16:05.86] And I think where they-- where I always thought there is a deficit of mindset with multilingual learners is the fact that when we actually help them learn English and when we help them foster that great love of learning, they're bilingual. They're multilingual. I'm still only speaking English. You know what I mean? So it's like, that's just-- and I think that sometimes people don't see that. And I think that that can be very frustrating.

[00:16:35.96] One of the trends that I'm seeing more and more of these days, though, is doing that of empathy interviews. And I, actually, see it with multilingual learners as well because-- and it reminds me Russell Bishop out of Australia. Has always done this with Maori students and Aborigine students. So it's work that kind of reminds me of his work from years ago. But nowadays I see that schools are actually using empathy interviews to actually interview students and ask them, what is the barrier to your learning?

[00:17:10.37] Why do you think it took us so long to, sort of, become aware that we should really just be asking them about their experiences and what works for them and what's a barrier, as opposed to just making the assumption that we knew that already? What that help make us more aware? Is it the fact that we see that schools are not doing a really great job with this population or is it because we've become more human and we care more about it?

[00:17:35.34] DEBBIE ZACARIAN: Well, yeah, I think those are really great points. And I think there's changing trends in leadership that help. And one of the big ones is we used to work in silos. We were the leader. And we kind of led by standing at the top of the room and being the leader of it all.

[00:17:53.29] And if we look to the federal laws, what it talks about is creating working groups, and that sense of collaborative leadership or distributive leadership or being co-powered. And in a great sense when we do that, we're going to be asking questions like, tell me about what your school was like because we might have multilingual families. There are children on the committees with us leaders in the community, other educators, and so forth.

[00:18:22.16] So instead of asking students or in addition to asking students, what language did you first learn to speak or what languages do you speak with friends? So forth and-- so on and so forth, which gives us a surface level of information. We might ask students, tell me about a subject you've really liked and why.

[00:18:40.33] Tell me about-- what does a class look like where you were in school before. When did you go to school? What do you hope to gain from going in school? What would you-- what clubs or after school activities did you participate in? How would you like to participate here?

[00:18:58.12] And if we ask parents and-- or should I say family since so many parents are two parent, single parent, foster parent, unrelated people living together, someone, aunts, uncles, grandparents, or someone who comes in as the familial representative. When we ask them, how did you participate in your child's prior school? How would you like to participate here?

[00:19:23.80] And then we spend time explaining all the varied opportunities for participation and express our interest in curiosity and getting to know one another, and building partnerships, those are the schools that do a great job at building success and helping students flourish.

[00:19:44.68] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. And I was going to say let's talk a little bit more about that because I don't want to have a deficit mindset when I'm doing the interview with you. I want to talk about a strengths-based approach. So what are some things that you see-- what are some strategies-- besides what you just gave us-- what are some strategies that you see schools using that are working really well?

[00:20:05.24] DEBBIE ZACARIAN: Oh, wow, there's a lot of strategies. I can give you a great example. And that's a student example. So Brockton Public Schools that-- is in my state. And I use examples from across the country, but one of the reasons I think it's helpful is it's really helpful when schools create a language assistance program that really mirrors their mission and vision. And every district has its mission and its vision statement.

[00:20:33.32] So in Brockton, its mission and vision is that students are going to be empowered. That's it-- it has it written out in various wonderful ways. And at-- in the district, there are a lot of schools. And there's one called The Mather-- the George Mather School. And it has several dual language programs in it.

[00:20:53.45] So what makes the Mather's program emblematic of the district is its goal is to empower its kids. Its dual language speakers. So every year, periodically during the year, it recruits families for the following year. So it knows that in order to build these dual language programs, they need to have families enroll their kids who are speakers of English and speakers of another language. In their case it's-- one of the programs is Spanish, Portuguese, and there's a third one. And I'm blanking on what it is.

[00:21:29.15] But what it does for its former dual language learners who participated in the program is they're invited to come and speak about why they liked being in the dual language program. What they gained from it. Why they think other students should participate in it.

[00:21:46.81] So I interviewed this high school student, Montserrat. And I asked her, tell me about the dual language program. What did you like about the Mathers? And she sent me the speech that she gave to a family meeting, but she translated it into English which I used in its entirety in the book.

[00:22:07.99] And so here Brockton is empowering its students. Think about how empowered she is to go to a family meeting where they're recruiting future families to have their kids enrolled in the dual language program, and to mirror the district's goal of empowerment. They empower its graduates, right? So she came and she talked about it. And she was so proud to be asked to have her words published in a real book, a book.

[00:22:35.25] PETER DEWITT: I think that's awesome. It reminds me of two things. Number one, I've worked with Brockton many times before. And it sounds totally up their alley what they would be doing. But number two, I think that whole idea of the empathy interviews that I was asking you about earlier, in a way in your new book, you actually have done that empathy interview experience because you do have those student vignettes or student testimonials, whatever we choose to call them.

[00:23:02.50] And maybe that's what I'd like to ask before we end up going because I think people are always looking for practical. one of the things that I've learned through COVID is that over every month, it felt like I just need to get more practical and practical and practical when I was running leadership webinars and stuff.

[00:23:18.91] So to give people practical who are listening to the podcast, what did some of those student vignettes-- and you can even tell me what you actually call them in the book-- but what are some of those student vignettes actually focus on? And how can people when they're reading it, what can they get from the student vignettes specifically?

[00:23:37.35] DEBBIE ZACARIAN: Yeah. Those are great questions. So every chapter in the book opens with an example, a hypothetical, or a real example or composite example of a student or a group of students or families or something like that.

[00:23:54.56] And in one in particular-- I can give you lots of examples, but one in particular is a student who enrolls-- a family enrolls him in a school. And he speaks Spanish. And he's never had the privilege of speaking English. So the school in its wisdom gives him a test, state mandated test to see if he's in English or a multilingual learner. indeed he is.

[00:24:19.15] And the principal of that school says, oh, OK, I'm getting this new student Manuel. I'm going to put him in our beginning program. And the student who is from El Salvador hasn't had the privilege in the way any prior schooling.

[00:24:36.76] So he goes to his class, and he's ready to start school. And he's in this classroom with other Spanish speakers. One of them is the student Ernesto who is moved to the district from Mexico. And Ernesto went to a private school in Mexico where he's learned a lot. And his math is very advanced. And he won an award at a school for most promising mathematician.

[00:25:06.34] So the two go into this new school. And almost immediately, Manuel-- the first student from El Salvador-- knows for sure that his classmate is much brighter and has much in the way of prior schooling. And so he really attempts to not just sit next to him but ask him a million questions.

[00:25:25.09] And the principal in his wisdom decides to put the kids in remedial classes thinking they don't speak English so they might as well go in the easiest classes so that they'll have ease of access into English And also ease of access into the academic language. So then I pose the question, is this in the best interest of these two kids?

[00:25:47.29] And then we unpack it through the chapter about, well, what would you do with Manuel? And what would you do with Ernesto? And they're very different in terms of their-- one has had the privilege of having high literacy levels in his first language. He is very bright in math. And what does that mean in terms of how does he see himself in a remedial class? Like, it tells him, I'm not very bright. I must be stupid because I don't speak the language, and so forth.

[00:26:17.03] So in the book, it gives these examples to really highlight as we make decisions around placement and around what-- where kids learn and how they should be integrated not isolated. What might that look like in your context, whether you have a high number of speakers of the same language or very limited numbers. Or whether you have a homogeneous group of kids who speak the same language other than English, or kids who come from varied language groups. What should that look like.

[00:26:48.02] So I provide very practical advice for all the various scenarios and what the school day should look like. And why the two should be really-- should be given a program of study that really matches their academic learning as well as their language learning needs. And what that looks like.

[00:27:10.26] PETER DEWITT: That's great. I think it's such a fantastic idea to be able to offer up those student vignettes for people to learn from because it just offers the voice. And actually a models what it is that you want to see when you're in their school--

[00:27:25.90] [INTERPOSING VOICES].

[00:27:26.85] DEBBIE ZACARIAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there's a chapter on identifying learning difference from learning disability. And in that one I use a case study of a student who-- interestingly because I've had such stuff the background or the privilege of working with so many multilingual learners, it's a composite study. And in this case, it's a student who lived with her grandparents in a rural area of China while her parents attended graduate school.

[00:27:55.58] So they had been in the United States for five years, and they knew their daughter was ready to start public school. And they wouldn't have to pay for it, it would be free public education. And now they speak English quite fluently so they have her join them. And they've got advanced degrees. One has a doctorate, the other one is working toward a doctorate.

[00:28:14.78] And so when their child comes, they speak to her in English only. And the child goes to school. So she's been reunited with a parent-- with parents that she hasn't seen much in the way of. She's speaking-- they're speaking the language she does not know at all. And she goes to school and she starts having a lot of meltdowns, a lot of meltdowns.

[00:28:35.62] And so the kindergarten teacher wants to refer her for-- to see whether she has a learning disability. And in the first scenario, I have an example of where they meet with the parents, and the parents say she's just as difficult at home. And that affirms their thinking that, oh, it must be a disability. And she goes through the IEP process and gets identified as a student with profound disability. And she's removed totally from the classroom, and is in a separate classroom for students with disabilities.

[00:29:07.94] So then I take the same student, same issue. And I have them interview using a protocol that's in the book around asking the parents, tell us about your background, your child, where was your child raised, with whom, what did school look like, so forth. And the school finds out that she hasn't really spent much in the way of time with her family-- with their parents. And that they're speaking in a language that this child doesn't have any facility in yet.

[00:29:37.42] So through their child study team and the new multi-tiered student systems of support, or the MTSS, they come up with some interventions. One of them being that they're going to have a behavioral interventionist and with the kindergarten teacher, and really help the student find pathways to feeling comfortable and safe and a sense of belonging, and so on and so forth.

[00:30:03.88] They hire a multilingual speaker who can work with the student and explain what the rules are and why they are and what's happening in the classroom and what kinds of expectations there are. Just all wonderful translations of what's happening and why, and so on and so forth.

[00:30:24.86] And they also have the counselor meet with the family once a week, and check in and see how it's going. And talk about different parenting ideas and stuff. And they have the student involved in a lunch group of peers. So within a very short period of time at the end of that semester, she's not only acquiring English but she's doing quite well in school. And she seems to have acclimated really well.

[00:30:52.76] So what I highlight is, why do you think the same student did better in this program than in that program. And what kinds of things should we really be providing and are allowed to provide under the federal regulations to really identify multilingual learners with differences versus multilingual learners with disabilities.

[00:31:11.83] And clearly I show in the example that the student did not have disability. But like many multilingual learners, was identified as having one. And the other that I show is that the school-- and did it with its best intent-- used testing in English, which didn't have the capacity to do. And she got frustrated and acted out. So--

[00:31:32.84] PETER DEWITT: If I had to take a test in French, I'm sure I certainly wouldn't do well, but you know. So thank you. Those are really excellent points. So Debbie, why don't you tell people where can they find you and also find some of these resources already-- besides the book that's going to be coming out, where else can they find you? Where they can read more about some of these resources?

[00:31:56.04] DEBBIE ZACARIAN: Oh, wow, there's quite a bit. Well, I've done a number of YouTube presentations for Coloring Colorado, specifically on the topic of identifying students with differences and disabilities. I've also written on my website, which is zacarianconsulting.com. I've written many blogs and white papers on this topic of transforming schools or meeting the needs of our ever changing multilingual learners that folks can get.

[00:32:28.27] I am sure that Corwin, very quickly, is going to have the imagery of the book and probably the first and second chapter up very quickly. And people can reach out to me. I'm very happy to help schools, districts, and state education agencies in their quest to really help students and groups of students and families really be engaged with us in helping students be successful in school and in their lives.

[00:33:08.53] PETER DEWITT: Well, thank you for that. So Debbie Zacarian, thank you for being on the Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast the second time. Congratulations on the book. And good luck with everything.

[00:33:18.40] DEBBIE ZACARIAN: Thank you very much. Thanks so much.

[00:33:23.23] TANYA GHANS: Peter, Debbie is-- so many of our guests are awesome. In fact, all of them are. And but they have their own unique things that I think make them stand out. And I think her warmth and sincerity around this topic is so truly and deeply felt that I was very inspired listening to Debbie talk about the work she's done with children. And I think that was fantastic.

[00:33:51.80] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. And one of the things that I learned about and it makes me realize because it was about-- it would have been a little over a year after I left my position as principal, was when she started talking about the Dear Colleague letter. I had no idea that that existed. So I think it's great that she brought that up because that was certainly something that I didn't know.

[00:34:17.09] And it's always good too to have this discussion because I just remember being at the university level or when I was in college and you always had to buy the fourth edition or the fifth edition. And I kept thinking, oh my gosh, what did they do? Like change a word and now I have to spend more money on a new book that I'm taking in this class?

[00:34:36.57] So it was really good to talk to her about, what's the difference between the first edition and the second edition of your book? And she talked a lot about the five major changes. She talked about COVID and those kind of things. And that makes sense. I mean, it obviously makes sense because it's been 10 years since she wrote the first book.

[00:34:55.58] But I also appreciated the fact that she shared her website at the end where people can actually go in. If they don't know Debbie or if they don't know a lot about multilingual learners, or maybe they're just a new school leader and this is a population that they're just starting to get to know, maybe go to her website. And checking out some of her YouTube videos is a good way to warm up, dip your toes in the water before you dive into some books.

[00:35:21.11] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, I think that's great and really, really helpful for listeners. I was also really moved in terms of her practical strategies. And we only got the tip of the iceberg. Getting her book, there's going to be so much in there. I can tell it's valuable.

[00:35:35.87] But when she talked about one of the things that districts who do this work well with multilingual learners is really have their language assistance programs mirror what their vision is. And so the school that was focused on empowering students and brought back students to talk about the program to adults and other important people involved in the process, I thought that was fantastic.

[00:35:58.35] And I think, again, that's just one nugget among many that will be in her book for what you can actually do for children, especially when you're thinking about placement decisions and all of that. And the last thought I had, which hearkens back to my point in the beginning, was that we really have to continue to expand the way that we define data.

[00:36:20.17] I think we know that it's more than just numbers, but it can be so easy to think about the numbers. But we are missing so much when we don't bring in some of that soft or qualitative stuff. And it's actually as powerful, arguably in some cases, more than what you might get from raw numbers and data.

[00:36:39.34] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, I think one of the big takeaways-- because I know that sometimes people-- we talk about the book and the book-- and all that stuff. But I think one of the biggest takeaways too is the idea of empathy interviews and talking to students and understanding what are the barriers or what are your-- what are the things that work the best for you in the past.

[00:36:59.62] And I think I would just-- when we're talking about being more human, I think that when we're going to create these spaces where all students can learn, we really have to find ways to engage the students by asking them what will work best for you, what has worked for you in the past.

[00:37:17.83] And I think she-- obviously, she's modeling that by doing that in the book too by offering vignettes. I just think that to me is one of the biggest takeaways. How do we actually go back and talk to the students and ask, what works for you? That would be a great place to start.

[00:37:33.31] TANYA GHANS: Fantastic. Well, Peter, I love being more human with you.

[00:37:38.02] PETER DEWITT: Same here.

[00:37:39.70] TANYA GHANS: And I look forward to more of this in our next interview and discussion.

[00:37:44.77] PETER DEWITT: Absolutely. Always good to see you.

[00:37:47.20] TANYA GHANS: OK, see you next time, Peter. Goodbye.

[00:37:50.58] PETER DEWITT: Thanks, everyone.