Know Your Students & Learn From Your Students
Guest(s): Mary-Margaret Mara
Date: 10/11/2023
Run time: 51:11
Season 1, Episode 9
Listen, review and subscribe on: Apple, Spotify, YouTube,
Episode Audio
Teacher to Teacher Series 1
[00:00:00.44] [MUSIC PLAYING]
[00:00:03.07] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Corwin's Teacher to Teacher podcast with
host Carol Pelletier Radford. Carol is an experienced classroom teacher,
University educator, founder of mentoring and action.com, and author of four
bestselling professional books for teachers. She believes the best form of
professional learning happens when teachers engage in authentic conversations
and share their wisdom.
[00:00:23.86] In every episode, Carol and her guests share stories about
pivotal moments in their careers, successful classroom strategies, and personal
actions they take to minimize stress and stay healthy. The Teacher to Teacher
podcast is a place to engage in authentic conversation and reflection with
experienced educators. We hope these conversations will energize you, keep you
inspired, and remind you why you chose to become a teacher.
[00:00:49.01] TORI BACHMAN: Hello, welcome to the Teacher to Teacher
podcast, sharing our wisdom with our host Carol Radford. I am Tori Bachman, a
Corwin editor and co-organizer of this podcast which we've created for teachers
at all levels who are searching for practical wisdom that they can use in their
classrooms. We believe we're all constantly learning and we're learning
together.
[00:01:10.94] To share their wisdom today, we have two teacher guests who
have broad experience and quite different backgrounds. And I can't wait to hear
all the ways they're seemingly different journeys have connections. I will
introduce now to you John SanGiovanni and Mary Margaret Marra.
[00:01:28.55] John SanGiovanni is a nationally recognized leader in
mathematics education. He works in Howard County, Maryland, as a district
leader of math instruction, curriculum development, professional learning,
coaching, and assessment. John is also a best selling author of professional
books with 15 books published by Corwin over the years, and he is a national
consultant.
[00:01:52.98] John's most recent title, Daily Routines to Jumpstart Problem
Solving, published earlier in 2023. Hey, John. So great to have you on the
podcast. Thanks for being here.
[00:02:04.38] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm looking
forward to it.
[00:02:07.09] TORI BACHMAN: And Mary Margaret Mara is a preschool teacher
for the Worcester Public Schools in Massachusetts. She's been in education for
30 years teaching preschool. And preschool is her passion, brings her great
joy. In recognition of her time and dedication to young children, Mary Margaret
was named Worcester Public School's teacher of the year in 2014 and she was a
Massachusetts Teacher of the Year finalist in 2017.
[00:02:34.39] Mary Margaret is also one of the educators who is featured in
Carol's recent book titled, When I Started Teaching I Wish I Had Known, Weekly
Wisdom for Beginning Teachers. Hi, Mary Margaret. It's really good to see you.
Happy to meet you. Thanks for being with us.
[00:02:50.96] So we've all been looking forward to this conversation. And we
appreciate this time together to learn with both of you. So I'm going to turn
it now over to Carol to get the conversation started.
[00:03:03.11] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Well, thank you all to all our
listeners and our guests today. So this podcast is about the wisdom that the
two of you will share today and that all the listeners also have. So looking at
ourselves as the receptacles for improving our own teaching practices. So I
like to begin every podcast with your story because I find so many of our
guests and teachers enter teaching for a variety of different reasons. And
you're still teaching and working in schools.
[00:03:37.63] So Mary Margaret, did you always want to be a teacher? And I
see you've been teaching for 30 years. So something's working in spite of the
conditions that are going on today that are coming out is pretty negative. Tell
me your story. Let's hear what's going on with you.
[00:03:57.16] MARY MARGARET MARA: So I decided to become a teacher when I
was young. I grew up with a language-based learning disability. Dyslexia runs
through our family. And I was diagnosed with dysgraphia. So I had a hard time
with the writing process. And I had significant difficulty with word retrieval
as a young child.
[00:04:14.40] So elementary school was incredibly challenging for me. I was
lucky enough to have a mom who was really very supportive through the whole
process. She was always like-- I come home in tears and frustrated. My mom
would be like, Mary, the only way through this is through this, what you need
to learn how to do is to take the best of situations and move forward with that
and leave the rest behind.
[00:04:39.74] So it's that whole thought process that when you stumble and
you make mistakes, be reflective in the moment, learn what worked about a
situation and what didn't and move forward with those pieces. So by having a
lot of difficulty with word retrieval, I also spent a lot of time watching
other students. And it became very clear to me over time that not everybody
learns the same way. And that kind of fascinated me and that's part of the
reason why early childhood, I felt so drawn to.
[00:05:09.56] You get to teach through multiple modalities, and you teach
through all different types of learning styles. And I felt like the tools and
the strategies that I learned to be successful in school were things that I could
share with others. So when I was 13, I turned to my mom, I said, I want to
learn more about early childhood education. She introduced me to the early
childhood coordinator in our town. And I started volunteering in a summer
program with kids that weren't quite ready to go into first grade from
kindergarten. And from that moment on I just knew I wanted to teach. It felt
right.
[00:05:45.38] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Wow. I think your story is the
earliest student teaching experience that I've ever heard, being 13 and
entering the classroom. And then many of us do decide to become teachers
because we're drawn to it early in life. But your condition or your mother even
mentoring you through observing other learning styles-- what a gift that is,
Mary. Thank you for sharing that. I have not heard a story like that.
[00:06:18.37] John, what's your journey? Why did you decide to become a
teacher? Have you decided yet, John? Have you decided?
[00:06:26.47] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: I don't know what I want to do when I grow
up. That's what I'm going for now. Well, so I mean, like many people, I always
had a passion for learning. I love talking with others and listening to their
thinking and pushing back on their thinking and such. I love social settings
and interactions.
[00:06:45.25] Teaching is a social endeavor. It's about people, no matter
how tall they are how old they are. I mean, that's what teaching is is knowing
other people and part of their story. So the short of it is how I got here
wasn't exactly planned. Originally, I was a computer science major. And I just
wanted clear, that was really, really hard and it really conflicted with my
social engagements in college.
[00:07:10.64] And so the short of it is I didn't do so well. So I had to
find a new major. And where I was with credits, I was like, I think I like this
education thing, I'll try that. And sometimes in life, you get lucky. And I got
lucky because if I kept on the other things for the wrong reasons, computer
science that is, I wouldn't have got to where I am today. So long story short,
I became a education major and just I always wanted to be a teacher. I just
didn't always know it. And it wasn't until then that I found out--
[00:07:39.92] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So what was your first teaching job
after college?
[00:07:42.86] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: My first teaching job after college was I
was a kindergarten teacher for one year. And then I changed grades. I know, I
know. I know, it was-- let's just say that I learned a lot that year. And I
can't tell you all the things I learned, but it wasn't really academic things.
I'm not sure that they learned a lot, but we had a good time.
[00:08:05.33] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: You did have a good time, yes. And
Mary, I know that you made that decision to teach, and then you ended up
teaching first grade, second grade-- are you teaching first grade now primary?
[00:08:18.76] MARY MARGARET MARA: I teach preschool.
[00:08:19.93] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Preschool, preschool. Before
kindergarten.
[00:08:24.19] MARY MARGARET MARA: Yeah.
[00:08:24.97] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, wow. So you're both in that
realm. But John's writing more his math for the high school students. And
what--
[00:08:32.98] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: No, actually, most of my writing is for
elementary and middle school.
[00:08:36.77] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Elementary and middle. OK, thank you
for clarifying that. And now just share a little on this journey where you are
right now, what brought you to this place in your career. You made the
decision, you've taught for a while, you're contributing. What's the focus now,
Mary?
[00:08:58.55] MARY MARGARET MARA: I've always liked being in the classroom.
So ways that I've stretched myself would be like I'm a district mentor leader
for my district. I mentor many teachers. I've had several student teachers. And
I'm also an adjunct for Worcester State. So I teach in their accelerated online
master's program. Now I've taught an undergraduate class too. It's all focused
around early childhood.
[00:09:23.01] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So I see you as a practitioner
scholar, you teach at the University, you have stretched yourself, but you lead
from the classroom. And you have stayed in the classroom. I know we've
collaborated on many mentor preparation and support programs, and I appreciate
your wisdom. And it is grounded in the classroom, and you have those stories
that you can bring to the table. And tell me what you're doing right now, John?
Just explain it a little bit more.
[00:09:51.83] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Yeah, so I'm a district leader for
mathematics program in Howard County. And so Howard County, Maryland, is
halfway between Baltimore and Washington. We're a school system of about 85
schools. And like Mary, I mean, I'm still passionate about the classroom.
[00:10:04.17] And I say that to you because my role is different today, but
I make an effort to be in classrooms most every day. And curriculum folks don't
always get a chance to do that. But fortunately, I can. And that's important
because it helps me to think about the work that we're doing to support our
teachers and how we might adjust.
[00:10:20.40] People talk about teaching learning, it doesn't change. It
changes considerably year to year. But over 30 years, it really changes. And so
yeah, I mean, that work is important.
[00:10:35.23] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And I think it's--
[00:10:35.94] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: We need to help our teachers think about the
work that they do. Go ahead.
[00:10:38.85] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes. No, no, no, I love what you're
saying, John, because I think just the fact that you make it a priority to get
into classrooms is huge because we know that isn't the case in a lot of
district leader levels. There's a lot of paperwork and grant writing and all of
those things become important. But the transition to what's going on in the
classroom I think then makes a leader, whether you're in the classroom or not--
it's more useful the kind of feedback that you're going to give because you've
seen firsthand what's going on in classrooms so that you can make
recommendations to district leaders. Is that what happens or-- that's the goal,
right?
[00:11:24.73] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: I think that's what happens. I think about
the work that I do. I support district math coaches, district interventionists.
I work closely with our principals. And so being in classrooms-- and also, you
said it a moment ago, and that is practitioners/scholar. And so some of my work
is taking the theory and the research and finding out how and helping our
teachers think about how they can implement that in practical ways in the
classrooms.
[00:11:49.62] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, that's what I love. I mean, I
have the higher education degree, the doctoral work and everything. But for me,
when I work with classroom teachers, they want something they can actually use
that changes and influences student learning. And a lot of the research in my
doctoral program, I would just say, why are we studying this, nobody is going
to use it. And yes, we do need some research. But I love that you picked up on
the practitioner scholar because that's where my heart lives.
[00:12:19.05] I'd like you each to share a story of a time that you were in
the classroom or working in the classroom that it impacted you in a way that
this memory changed you or changed your perspective as you moved forward with
your teaching or your research or something. It may be a successful experience
or maybe something that was tragically a mistake and it changed you as you move
forward. Mary, what comes to mind in your career?
[00:12:56.44] MARY MARGARET MARA: I'll share a little bit more detail. It's
the same story that I shared in your book. And we call him Richard. That's not
his real name. But it was my second year of teaching.
[00:13:07.12] And Richard was this little guy in my classroom that was a
wild man. He was into everything, he was everywhere you could imagine,
constantly running around the classroom, had a very high pitched voice, was
very hyperactive, would steal other kids' snacks and hide out in the table and
eat the snacks. And I was constantly having this feeling as a new teacher, if I
just didn't have this one kid in my classroom, I'd have a great class. I was
constantly struggling with how to handle his behavior.
[00:13:37.81] And what I learned over time from him was I reached out to my
adjustment counselor and I said, you know what's going on, I don't know what
else to do, I'd go in tears, I'm frustrated and angry and disappointed to have
this kid in my class. And she said to me, Mary, you need to understand a little
bit of the background knowledge. This little guy's stepfather is in the process
of going to jail for dealing drugs and he's four and he's now the man of the
house.
[00:14:07.51] So little by slow was starting to get more of an understanding
of him. And it changed my perception for a little while. We worked together. A
few months later, the behavior spikes off the charts. And I go back to the
adjustment counselor and I'm like, what's going on, I don't know what to do
with him now, I can't understand why the behavior is getting so rough.
[00:14:26.23] So she said to me, let's go for a walk. So we went and we did
a home visit. We go to his apartment and we step into the apartment. And on the
right hand side, there's one bedroom with three mattresses and just sheets.
Four people slept in that one bedroom. And as you stepped in, on the left hand
side, there was a brown couch.
[00:14:49.18] And I found that as the adjustment counselor and the mom were
talking to one another, my eyes were immediately drawn to the kitchen window,
and then back across to the kitchen wall, and then to the refrigerator. You
see, what had happened was there was a drive by shooting. And the bullet had
come in through the kitchen window and it had been embedded in the kitchen
wall. And it had narrowly missed this little boy's mom who was standing at the
refrigerator with the refrigerator door open. And all three children were
sitting on that brown couch and had witnessed it happened.
[00:15:24.95] And in that moment, everything shifted. I realized in that
moment that that little boy was not in my classroom to make my life more
difficult. He was just trying to survive. And he was trying to survive with the
weight of the world on his shoulders. I went home that night and I cried. I
cried for that little boy and I thought to myself something, needs to change.
[00:15:49.46] And what I realized needed to change was me. I needed to
change my attitude and my perspective and I needed to get to know him. In the
next day I went in and for the rest of the year, I worked to get to know him.
And once I stopped just associating him with his behavior and got to see the
little boy, then I could see Richard and I could see he was funny and he was
kind and he was compassionate towards his peers. And we could build on that.
And developing that relationship with him made me realize how important it is
to develop relationships with our students because when we treat kids with
kindness and compassion and we respect and appreciate them for who they are,
that's when the doors for learning start to open.
[00:16:38.79] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. Mary, I think it's
important for all of us to just pause and understand that it is all about our
students. And there are too many of those stories that many teachers don't even
know, that we never find that out. So I commend you for, as a beginning
teacher, having a counselor that helped you to understand and see that. And I
appreciate you sharing that on this podcast and reminding all of us how important
it is to detach that behavior from the student what they're doing in our
classroom and make it about them. So thank you for keeping us human and
realizing the important work that teachers do and how that influence on that
child could change his whole life because of your changed perspective.
[00:17:46.04] John, do you want to kind of respond to that story before you
share yours?
[00:17:50.54] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Yeah, sure. I mean, I think my takeaway is
not going to be as powerful, that's for sure. But I do want to say that I'm
reminded of those stories and those experiences and thinking that, as Mary was
talking, it reminded me that every student has a story and that for a student
going through a divorce at home or loss of a grandfather or something like
that, there's all kinds of things that can create situations for our kids in
our classrooms. And we don't know who they are and understand what's going on
and know about them and how they change across the year. We can be misguided by
the behaviors or the disengagement and what have you and that these are people
that have feelings and experiences too. And sometimes, we can lose that.
[00:18:42.42] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, yes. Thanks, John. So what has
showed up in your career as a place that made some growth or influenced in you
in the way you move forward? Just a memory that stays with you.
[00:19:00.06] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: I mean, I think we all have so many memories
about things that we've learned across the years. I have silly things about like
why are their shoestrings wet when it hasn't rained in months. But don't want
to get into that one. I'm going to get into learning like when I as a teacher
thought that I was the purveyor of knowledge and that I told them how and what
they needed to know. And it wasn't until I remember Brooke one year saying to
me when we were learning about multiplication and she saw the arrays and she
said, is that why they're called square numbers, when she was working with
area.
[00:19:35.81] And I was just thinking about I knew what a square number was
and square roots and things like that, but I never actually understood why they
called them square numbers. And when I saw the area of being a square and it
dawned on me and I was like, yeah, that's exactly why I say this to the
listener because there's so much to learn about anything we teach. And to think
that we are the only ones who know it is foolish.
[00:19:59.39] I think about the time a student explained to another student
a topic in math better than I did. And that reinforced for me that idea that--
yeah, reinforce that kids had better ideas. Not necessarily better ideas, but
they had perceptions about things that were valid and important as well. And to
think that I was just going to tell them how to see and understand math was
foolish. And I think those things transcend then to how I want to have kids
talk and share their ideas as much as possible. So I think those are two. I'll
tell you one last one.
[00:20:32.97] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, please, please.
[00:20:34.62] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: --my favorite. So if you've ever had the
opportunity to change grades with your kids, it's fabulous. I've spiraled with
my kids as I call it two years. But nonetheless, one year, I was teaching
fourth grade, and we're teaching division at the time. And about half of my
kids got it and about half didn't. Pretty good actually because division can be
a really hard topic.
[00:20:54.15] Nonetheless, I got to fifth grade, the following year, with
the same students teaching math and division again. And almost everybody got
it. And the kids that were really getting it who had in the year before, they
started to say, Mr. S, why didn't you teach it like this last year. And the
funny part about the story is it's exactly the same way I taught it the year
before and that it just took some kiddos more time to be able to see it, to be
able to understand it, and to be able to process it. And sometimes, we have to
keep that in mind as well.
[00:21:26.13] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, the development. I love that. I
can hear those kids saying it, why didn't you teach it like this last year.
[00:21:32.31] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: And I was like, well, it's the exact same
file folder, pal. I did the same--
[00:21:36.78] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I did the same thing. But you were
ready for it. Thank you.
[00:21:41.25] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Yeah, well, I didn't say that to them. But
it dawned on me that kiddos learn at different rates in different ages. And you
have to keep that in mind.
[00:21:49.30] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: It gets back to Mary's experience,
her own experience of learning with her mother helping her understand and then
Mary observing, looking around the room and seeing how everybody's doing it
differently. And I love, John, what you just said about acknowledging that a
student could actually explain something to another student in a way that the
student gets it and that we don't have to be the ones always saying it our way.
So you're giving us the same message which is opening up our classrooms to
letting other people speak, other modes of-- all those multiple intelligences.
I love with Howard Gardner's work and just letting the students be the teachers
and the coaches of each other because that's how we all learn.
[00:22:37.45] So one of the biggest topics, the hottest topic, if you ask a
new teacher what are they struggling with, they always say, classroom
management, classroom management, which means many different things to many
different people. To me, it's the management of paper or time or it could be
behavior or it could just be the organization of the routines and the rituals,
that whole design that a teacher has to create that is unrelated but related to
the content we're teaching. So we go to these college programs, we learn the
content, we learn all the stuff, and then that's, to me, why classroom
management is like the elephant in the room. Nobody talks about it, but that's
what's required of every teacher to be successful.
[00:23:25.97] So do you have any magic tips, takeaways that our listeners
could actually use and apply that are not theoretical like try this, this might
work? Mary, what do you have in your tool kit?
[00:23:40.72] MARY MARGARET MARA: I actually have two things. There's one
that I call the 1, 2, 3, 4 strategy-- stop, observe, listen, and learn. I think
all too often, we as educators jump in at the end part of a situation and make
preconceived notions where if we take the time to stop and observe what's
happening and really listening to the interactions with students, and then we
learn how to then approach that situation. That's a strategy I've used that
really works well for me.
[00:24:14.53] Another one is COVID has definitely changed our classrooms.
Coming back from COVID, many of my students teaching in a preschool classroom
basically have grown up with COVID being a big part of their lives since
they're three and four years old. So one thing that we found that was an
effective strategy to try in the classroom is I was trying to get kids to be
more kind to one another, to really understand what kindness meant.
[00:24:42.76] So one thing we approached, we started-- I think it's two
years ago now-- we call it a kindness award. So every week, we watch and we
observe and we make note of a child that's gone out of their way to be kind and
respectful to the adults and the other students in the classroom. And in the
beginning, some of them get it right away. Some of them, it takes them the
whole year.
[00:25:07.75] But it really becomes as kids start getting it and what
happens when they get the kindness award, they get a certificate, they get a
prize for it, and they get to stand up in front of the group and be recognized.
They start really cheering each other on as they start, oh, that's great, you
got Xavier, we're so excited for you, that's wonderful. And they really start
internalizing what does kindness actually look like. So I found that strategy
has worked really well in my room.
[00:25:37.36] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you for sharing that one. Do
you have one kindness that comes to mind specifically, a student or a situation
somebody got the award for? What was their kindness? I'm just curious.
[00:25:49.78] MARY MARGARET MARA: Going out of their way. I had one little
guy who was basically nonverbal. But if you put in front of him I need help, it
was a little thing that we left velcroed. And one of little girls in my
classroom, she would sit next to him and she would just point to the word so he
could say it and support him through the process. And that wasn't something we
asked her to do. It was something she just naturally started doing.
[00:26:14.55] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that. So then the students get
creative and they're not just mimicking what you say the rules are to get
praise from the teacher. You're creating this community where the students are
watching each other and observing unique ways to be kind. But the kindness is
actually relating to their success in the classroom.
[00:26:38.97] MARY MARGARET MARA: Exactly. And there were no strict rules
around it. We would give examples of need be, but I didn't say this is a
criteria for me looking forward. So leaving it more open-ended allowed for them
to come up with ideas that I hadn't thought of.
[00:26:55.14] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that. And look at these little
people! Oh, my God. They're great, they're models for us. John, what practical
management or in that realm could be utilized by some of our listeners today?
[00:27:09.73] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Yeah. I mean, I was thinking about that. And
I want to speak to the same idea in a similar way. Many of us are trained the
first day of school, write the rules, let the kids write them together, come up
with them together, you put the rules on the chart paper, and everybody signs
it like it's a declaration of independence.
[00:27:24.04] And I have found that that is the most bogus thing I could
ever do in my classroom. And I want to be clear what I mean by that is there
are rules in the classroom that are non-negotiables. We have to signal to go to
the bathroom, we have to raise our hand to speak. I mean, there are certain
things as an authority figure I have to set in place. The speed limit is set in
place. I didn't agree to it, but that's what it is.
[00:27:44.89] But what Mary speaks to and what we're talking about here I
think is norms and that's something different. So these are the rules in the
classroom for order and safety. But norms are something different. And I would
encourage taking time with students to do, I've had success doing this with
what do we do when we're stuck, what are good behaviors when we're stuck, what
are things we shouldn't be doing right. Or how do we talk to each other, what
should we see, what shouldn't we see, and how do you manage your frustrations,
what are some things that-- is it good to get up and walk around the room when
you're frustrated, is it OK to break something. You get the idea.
[00:28:22.60] And maybe more about taking risks because kids think that
taking risks means be first and fast. And that's not what that means. I say all
this to you because kids at all ages have ideas about what these things are.
And this is where we have a chance for them to explain in their own language what
it means to take a risk and what it doesn't. And I have found that when they
say and establish what norms are for interactions, and then my anchor charts
reflect their ideas, they can live up to that.
[00:28:51.53] And then during the course of the year, as they evolve as
students, we can start to adjust maybe some of those norms for the classroom.
So that's my tip. That is differentiating between roles and norms and having
kids have a saying how interactions go down.
[00:29:07.17] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And what you're both really saying
here that I'm hearing is you're allowing or creating space for the students to
participate from their own unique personalities, how they understand kindness
or that particular norm of helping another in the room or just being in a group
where everybody gets to talk and giving the quiet kid a chance to even speak. I
remember being in an adult group. And I had never experienced this norm before.
[00:29:41.18] We were in a group in a college graduate class. And the facilitator
came in and she just said, OK, here's one of the norm-- the norm of the group
is everyone speaks once before anyone speaks twice. And I never heard anybody
say that.
[00:29:58.80] And it was so interesting because in many groups that I've
been in, there's a dominant person, and we all sit there, whether it's a
faculty meeting or a group of students or whatever, and one person has the
potential to dominate and some people never speak. Some people are doing their
grocery list, not engaged at all because it's like a group interaction and it's
OK. And when she said that, it changed the whole way in which I looked at group
interactions with students and adults. And then what happened is if I had a
group of five students, everyone speaks once before anyone speaks twice, but
you could pass.
[00:30:40.75] Well, then the kid started taking care of each other and they
would say, Joan, did you want to say something. They started watching to see if
everyone had spoken once. And it was such an interesting way. And I have used
it ever since with mentoring groups. And it just creates this culture of we're
looking out for each other. And I like the way that both of your ideas relate
to that. So thank you.
[00:31:11.69] So let's get to the elephant in the room is teaching really is
hard. It's always been hard. We all know it. We've been in this for a while,
the three of us.
[00:31:25.57] And we're still doing it. We're still supporting teachers in
our own ways from the classroom, from out of the classroom. So how do we
sustain ourselves? What do we do to not be that Pollyanna teacher that's just
like, oh, it's fine, I'll just get through it, but to recognize the suffering
in some ways and the hardships? What do you each do to come in positive or
reset yourselves and sustain your energy and desire to contribute to teachers?
What do you do, Mary?
[00:32:08.54] MARY MARGARET MARA: There's a couple of things that I do. I
think many of my friends happen to be teachers. I think it's really important
to talk to people.
[00:32:16.70] When you keep it all inside, that can be a trigger to just say
I can't do this and just leave whereas if you kind of have people where you can
bounce ideas off of, I think that can be really beneficial. It took me a long
time to learn to do things for myself like going for a walk. I like to listen
to mindfulness podcasts when I do it because it kind of just helps me reset for
the day. Taking care of myself-- one thing I'm going to do this fall, which is
totally out of my wheelhouse, but I'm going to give it a try as my best friend
who's a teacher too, the two of us are going to take guitar lessons on--
[00:32:53.06] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that.
[00:32:54.89] MARY MARGARET MARA: So it'll be interesting that I'm trying to
do more things for me because it's that whole sense they have like the fill the
bucket that we talk about the story. When you fill your own bucket, you have
then to give to other people. And it took me a long time to realize how
important it is to have the self-care piece.
[00:33:13.32] If we don't take care of ourselves, then we're not going to
successfully take care of our classrooms. You start a classroom community when
you show that you consider yourself important too. When you demonstrate and
model that to your students, then they can see that they then are important.
[00:33:30.70] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love the way that you're saying
that. And your examples are things that you-- you laughed about the guitar. I
have a bass guitar. I play bass guitar. But I probably need some lessons. But I
got the guitar just to practice and do something different.
[00:33:48.39] When we're in teaching and we've been teaching for a while,
some of us think it's like another workshop or another learn this. And I am a
teacher geek. I read tons of different books. But I like that you're sharing
some ideas that don't relate to that, it doesn't have to relate to that. And I
hope one of your podcasts will be listening to one of these podcast episodes on
one of your walks. So you're inspiring me. I might have to do some guitar
lessons now. All right, John, what do you have for us? How do you stay positive,
mister?
[00:34:25.20] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: One of the instructions when you get on a
plane is to make sure your oxygen mask is on first before you take care of
somebody else. And I think that that's an important piece. You can't be the
best teacher you want to be until you are in a good place yourself.
[00:34:37.98] For me, non-negotiables always have been carving out time for
exercise and to make sure I have enough sleep. And it's hard to do when you're
like, oh, my gosh, I got so much to do. At some point in my career, I just
found the perspective of like it's still going to be there tomorrow regardless
and just trying to manage things as best you can in those ways. I think Mary
says a good point is social creatures. Teachers really need that interaction,
that discussion, be it a happy hour, be it at home with someone significant in
your life, going for walks and having those conversations. I mean, I think all
those things-- taking up hobbies or rekindling a hobby is always a good thing,
but just doing things that take care of yourself first. And it seems like it's
easier said than done, and it can be. But if you don't do it, it's really hard
to take care of others.
[00:35:33.66] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And I mean, when we have these
interests, it's kind of a fun thing to talk about with the kids too.
[00:35:40.16] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: That's actually a really good point.
[00:35:41.15] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: They're going to be interested in
those guitar lessons.
[00:35:44.27] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Because they think they think we live at
school. That's why they love the pictures on our desks. They're like, you have
a dog. Yeah, I have a dog. But that's important because now they can make
connections with us as opposed to I sleep at my desk. And this job is all about
connections, all about connections.
[00:36:03.05] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: It is. And I think those are the
connections where we really get in to talking with our students at a different
level. And they love it and they relate to it. And teachers that we mentor, we
need to make time for that with them as well as we mentor beginning teachers.
You're both working in that realm, and I am as well, that we don't just jump
into the mentoring conversation and talking about their kids in the classroom
and what isn't working, that we actually just ask them, well, what are your
hobbies and what-- I think integrating the self care and the wellness and the
well being into these mentoring conversations is crucial.
[00:36:44.26] It's where I am with all of my mentoring now. That has to be a
major part. And that's why I wrote the book Teaching With Light. We have to
have the light in us to model and to share and to be willing to talk about it.
Or else, we're just like a shell. It's just a conversation that we're just
checking off the box that we had to conversation.
[00:37:08.36] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: And want to add something there too for our
new teachers. And that is like teaching is hard. Everybody recognizes that. And
it's always been hard. It's always been hard for-- And Mary, I imagine we're on
the same boat.
[00:37:20.90] My first year of teaching, I stayed at school later than I
ever did my second year and my third year and my fourth year. You start to find
efficiencies. It's hard to find those efficiencies even talking to somebody
until you've done it a couple times. I think that's the part that can be really
challenging is the perseverance when it feels like it's so overwhelming
sometimes.
[00:37:40.58] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, thank you for that. And I think
that's a great reminder to our listeners, beginners and experienced. Staying
later might not be the answer to our questions and to making that lesson any
better the next day because getting the sleep will make a bigger difference.
[00:38:05.97] So I want to pivot a bit to your books, John, and have you
give us an overview. I know you've written like 15 books. Why did you write
these books, what's the theme, what's the message to our listeners, which book
should they take a look at? Give us a little promotion here.
[00:38:28.68] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: OK. Well, I'll keep a brief promotion. But
there's so much more to math than what we've been told and that for many
teachers, most teachers, we've had one math class before we ever became a math
teacher. And we may not have had a great math experience ourselves.
[00:38:41.85] And so my work has been or my passion has been to help
teachers tap into the math person they are and to help their students find a
love for math that they have, to help them think and reason. That's really what
my work has always been about is how do we get kids engaged talking, thinking,
and so on. So my newest book is about just that, routines about problem
solving, how do we help kids make sense of problems and avoid silly stuff like
circling words and highlighting numbers, which really isn't problem solving,
but instead, helping them make sense and helping them develop skills that will
transcend or transfer throughout their lives.
[00:39:20.83] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that. So more critical
thinking skill than just memorizing formulas and the way that I was taught
math.
[00:39:30.64] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Which wasn't a good way to learn math, by
the way.
[00:39:32.71] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: No, I know. Math was the scariest
subject. And I think of myself as a problem solver, but I didn't learn it in
math. I don't know where I learned it then. So you're an advocate for problem
solving and critical thinking through math. I love that.
[00:39:55.21] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Through everything, but I focus on math.
Yeah, I'll talk more about it in a minute.
[00:39:58.66] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: All right, thank you. Thank you.
Mary, you are featured as one of our guests in the new book. Talk about what it
felt like to be published and have your story be public as part of this book,
When I Started Teaching, I Wish I Had Known.
[00:40:18.39] MARY MARGARET MARA: You know what, I love the concept of the
book and all the stories. And thought it was really cool to have my story out there
and to read all of the other stories because so many stories, you can read and
you can relate to. You're like, oh, I've kind had a similar experience to that.
And I think it kind of just provides, especially like new teachers, but I
suppose any teacher across the number of years, that sense of, oh, I never
thought about that before, oh, I've experienced something like that, or a quick
little synopsis of something that I can go and try in my classroom.
[00:40:53.40] And like you've said before, teachers want things that are
practical. We want practical ideas to then take back to our classrooms. So when
you can read something that's short and sweet and gives you ideas that you can
then take back and try in your classroom or think about how you approach in
your classroom, I think that's very valuable.
[00:41:13.56] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Well, thank you for being part of it.
And along with the 36-- you're one of the 36 teachers for weekly wisdom for the
school year. But I also want to give a shout out to the website that Corwin put
together that goes with the book for our listeners who have it to just check it
out because there is more wisdom there and more background and just check it
out. John, you want to add anything else about your latest book or--
[00:41:40.24] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Well, yeah.
[00:41:40.84] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: --what's next or--
[00:41:41.98] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Just briefly, yeah. What's next--
[00:41:44.47] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah, just kidding.
[00:41:46.10] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Actually I think that that note about being
practical, and that's what I'm most proud of in my work. And that is how do I
make something practical that teachers can use every day. And that's really the
highlight of not just the recent work, but the new work coming out for math
interventions and how do we do things practically.
[00:42:04.84] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And are you using that with the
teachers in your district? What components of your work or your book do you
find that teachers resonate with the most, that they embrace?
[00:42:17.53] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Wow, that's a great question. I mean, yes,
we use much of my work as the core for our instruction or instructional
philosophies. The answer is I think it varies from teacher to teacher. And I
think that's another thing to keep in mind too is that not all of us do this
job the same way. I keep saying job. It's more than a job. But what I'm proud
about is to give practical diverse ideas to teachers so that you can meet your
kiddos needs based on your strengths as a teacher, not based on my strengths as
a writer or a creator.
[00:42:48.82] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So we're kind of back to that same
theme of what Mary introduced about the learning styles and the embracing and
seeing how people learn differently with her experience as a student and your
experience as a director who's introducing a variety of strategies. I love that
we are not one size fits all teachers and that there's one PD, professional
development, that we all have to do it the same way. So I really appreciate
that the big idea that the two of you that kind of emerged in this conversation
of really creativity and variety and differentiation and opportunity and
different ways of doing it that relate to who we are as human beings and
teachers. And that's when we have both.
[00:43:42.41] So let's close out the podcast with my final favorite question
from Richard Elmore. He wrote a book called, I Used to Think, and Now I Think.
And I love the way he made public that his thinking around public policy had
changed over time. And I like that we as teachers and teacher educators, we
need to focus on that and that it's OK to change our ideas if we have better
ones instead of sticking with the old stuff which isn't really working. So
Mary, what did you use to think about teaching and education and what do you
think now?
[00:44:21.88] MARY MARGARET MARA: I used to think that what made a
successful educator was the person who had a really well-developed, well
thought out lesson plan, materials were ready to go, and you were ready the
moment you walked into your classroom. I now believe that the most important
part of teaching is actually the positive relationships that you first build
with your students. when you get to know who they are and how they interact
with others, how they interact with the materials, that actually gives you the
information you need as an educator to make that well-developed lesson plan
possible. We need to understand that not every child approaches learning in the
same way. And how do we make our lessons adaptable in the moment? We do that by
learning who they are and what their needs are. And then we can make that
lesson plan become successful.
[00:45:13.67] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. Very clear. Lovely
message. And John?
[00:45:19.36] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: I just laughed because when you're saying
that, that's exactly what-- myself being a skilled lesson planner was filling
out the form the best way and getting your materials together. And that is so
not what teaching is. It just took me 20 plus 30 years to figure that out.
[00:45:35.53] I would say I used to think there was have to must do right
way of teaching, which is kind of along those lines. Almost a Ten Commandments
of teaching math, if you will. And then if I didn't do it the way everybody
else did, I was doing a bad job. And what I've learned is there's a greater
goal to teaching math or just teaching in general.
[00:45:55.72] It's not about recall, it's not about facts, it's not about
discrete ideas. It's about growing and nurturing, supporting people. That's
what this business is-- that think, that question, that are curious, that
wonder, that talk to each other, that take care of a community. Teaching is so
much more than delivery of information.
[00:46:18.76] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. Thank you for that. So
Mary, is there anything you want to say to John or anything you heard or any
feedback for him as we close our episode today?
[00:46:29.51] MARY MARGARET MARA: I just think it's interesting because
John, obviously, you work with teachers at a higher grade level and with
students. But the message is very similar. We both approach it in similar
respects to understanding that it's important to recognize what our students'
needs are and that I loved when you talked about how sometimes it's giving that
opportunity where one student can kind of teach the skill to another student.
That happens in my classroom all the time. For whatever reason, one child can
explain it far better than I can and that the other child just gets it.
[00:47:05.63] [LAUGHTER]
[00:47:06.48] The openness of recognizing that. And love too that your
approach that you understand that it really starts with people and that there
needs to be diversity in the way that you teach it. I think that's so important
and it makes me think, wow, his math classes must be pretty cool.
[00:47:22.86] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah, I love that.
[00:47:26.33] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: I'd like to think so.
[00:47:28.22] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: John, any message for Mary or just--
[00:47:31.01] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Yeah, gosh, there's so many messages for
Mary. And I'm going to come off of that idea that teaching is teaching and that
pre-K teachers like yourself do it the best. Young primary teachers do it the
best. And if we had more secondary folks who really spent some time in primary
classrooms to see how those things go down and how masterful our pre-K folks
are, as you reminded me of in your conversations and your insights, we could do
such better work for our adolescent kids.
[00:48:01.19] But I also want to say something else on the math side. In
pre-K and K, often we feel like, well, the math we teach is important. And I
just want to say to you and really all of our listeners who are early childhood
folks, you set the foundation for everything. There is no success later without
you. And so this isn't about you, Mary, but our listeners and primary folks who
sometimes feel like, I'm just teaching kindergarten. It's the most important
thing to do. So I just wanted to say that to you.
[00:48:23.93] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, thank you John. That's a great
way to end. And thank you both for being part of this. I'm going to turn this
over to Tori who's going to summarize our conversation and leave our listeners
with some highlights.
[00:48:36.85] TORI BACHMAN: Thank you. Yeah, I don't think I have much to
add, actually. I took a lot of notes. And things that really came through to
me, the two things I wrote down and kind of circled were know your students and
learn from your students. And it sounds like that was a theme that I heard from
each of you a few times that not only do the relationships matter and building
relationships with kids.
[00:48:58.74] And Mary, your story was just so moving and relatable in the
way that shifted how you thought about what you were doing every day in the
classroom. But you also realize that it's not about you, it's about the kids.
And that sounds like such a huge epiphany that I'm sure many teachers have and
can relate to.
[00:49:22.47] But then also, John, just listening to how-- I really
appreciate the strategies that you both gave. And John, the rules and norms
idea I think really struck a chord with me because there is often some
confusion around what's the difference between rules and norms. And keeping your
place of authority and keeping the kids safe is important, but it's also really
important to let them have some agency and the norms and the things that they
want to see every day in their classroom. So I really appreciated-- those kind
of tidbits in particular stood out to me that know your students and learn from
your students and let yourself be part of that human experience with them is
super important. So thanks for bringing that out for us today.
[00:50:14.63] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And thank you both and thank you to
all our listeners. I hope you will tune in for our next episode. Thanks again.
Bye, John, bye, Mary.
[00:50:24.86] ANNOUNCER: Thanks, everyone, for joining today's Teacher to
Teacher conversation. We hope this time together energized you, inspired you,
and reminded you why you chose to become a teacher. You can purchase any of
Carol's books and any books mentioned in the podcast online at www.corwin.com.
Please leave a review and share this podcast with your colleagues. Thank you
for listening to the Corwin Teacher to Teacher podcast, a place to share
teacher wisdom and engage in authentic conversations with experienced
educators.
[00:50:55.28] ANNOUNCER: Come explore Corwin's free new teacher toolkit and
resources. We've curated these resources based on extensive research from
teachers, coaches, and principals alike. Whether you are brand new or a veteran
teacher, find ready to go teaching tools at corwin.com today.
Mary-Margaret Mara
Mary-Margaret is a Preschool teacher for the Worcester Public Schools and has been in the field of education for 30 years. Teaching preschool is her passion and brings her great joy. In recognition of her time and dedication to young children, Mary-Margaret was named Worcester Public Schools Teacher of the Year in 2014 and a Massachusetts Teacher of the Year Finalist in 2017.
Carol Pelletier Radford
Carol received her Education Doctorate from the Harvard University Graduate School of Education, where she focused her studies on mentoring and teacher leadership. She is also a certified yoga teacher who practices meditation and shares mindfulness strategies with educators through her online courses and website. Her podcast Teaching With Light features the stories of teachers and inspirational leaders. Her next passion project is the creation of a Teacher Legacy Network, where retired teachers can share their wisdom with the next generation of teachers.
You can learn more about Carol, find free resources, videos, meditations, courses, and all of her books at mentoringinaction.com/.
Twitter: @MentorinAction
Facebook: @MentoringinAction4Teachers
Instagram: @cpradford
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