Relationships With Colleagues & Students are What Matter the Most

Series 1 Teacher to Teacher Podcast

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[00:00:03.10] SPEAKER: Welcome to Corwin's Teacher to Teacher podcast with host Carol Pelletier Radford. Carol is an experienced classroom teacher, university educator, founder of mentoringinaction.com, and author of four bestselling professional books for teachers. She believes the best form of professional learning happens when teachers engage in authentic conversations and share their wisdom.

[00:00:23.89] In every episode, Carol and her guests share stories about pivotal moments in their careers, successful classroom strategies, and personal actions they take to minimize stress and stay healthy. The Teacher to Teacher podcast is a place to engage in authentic conversation and reflection with experienced educators. We hope these conversations will energize you keep you inspired and remind you why you chose to become a teacher.

[00:00:49.81] TORI BACHMAN: Hi. Welcome to the Teacher to Teacher podcast, sharing our wisdom with our host Carol Radford. I am Tori Bachman, a Corwin editor and co-organizer of this podcast, which we've created for teachers at all levels who are searching for practical wisdom that they can use in their classrooms. We believe we're all constantly learning and learning together.

[00:01:11.44] To share their wisdom today, we have two teacher guests, Jim Burke and Jennifer Barrientos. I'd like to introduce them to you now. Jim Burke taught high school English for 35 years to students at all grade levels. He is the author of over 30 books, including The English Teacher's Companion, The Common Core Companion, and Academic Moves, his most recent Corwin title, Teaching Better Day by Day, published in April 2023. Jim is currently working as an advisor to an edtech company that's committed to student success. Hey, Jim, it's good to see you today.

[00:01:50.01] JIM BURKE: Very nice to be here, Tori.

[00:01:52.13] TORI BACHMAN: And joining us today is Jennifer Barrientos, a teacher who's featured in Carol's recent book titled, When I Started Teaching, I Wish I Had Known, Weekly Wisdom for Beginning Teachers. Jennifer is a tenth year educator who has served as a special education teacher, school case manager, district specialist, and district administrator. She currently teaches special education for grades three through eight in the Beverly city school district. In her free time, Jennifer likes to read, watch movies, and explore new places with her husband. Hey, Jennifer. Thanks for being here today.

[00:02:28.52] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: Hi, everyone. Happy to be here.

[00:02:30.89] CAROL RADFORD: Hi. Hi, Jen. Nice to see you and Jim. Welcome to this very new and exciting podcast adventure, Teacher to Teacher. So we intentionally wanted to have two teachers having a conversation. And before we get started and I tap into some of your inner wisdom, Jim from his many years and, Jen, from your experience in 10 years in teaching, I'd like to just give our audience, our listeners, a snapshot of why you chose to become teachers, and maybe two or three highlights along that journey that are meaningful for our listeners. Jennifer, why do you become a teacher? And how did you end up where you are in Beverly? Is that in New Jersey?

[00:03:24.48] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: Yeah, that's in New Jersey. We're not too far from Philadelphia. We can see Philadelphia across the river. So we're pretty close. I actually didn't start out going to school for teaching. I fell into teaching. One of my professors was retiring as a special education teacher at a juvenile detention center in Indianapolis. And I was not on that track. And when I met him, he said, no, no, no, you're a teacher.

[00:03:50.58] And he said, I'm retiring. Go apply for an emergency license. And go apply for this job. And I really respected Mr. House, who was the gentleman who got me into this. And so I did. And I got the job. And the story just evolved from there. I moved around a lot in Indianapolis, in Illinois. And my husband's in the military. And so I had a lot of different experiences from being a classroom teacher, a special education classroom teacher, to a district specialist for students with emotional behavioral disorders. And then, it evolved when I met Dr. Radford when I was in North Chicago.

[00:04:30.38] And I was the-- let me slow down with this one. Teacher-- [CHUCKLES] Teacher residency and induction program supervisor. And essentially, what I did was I supported brand new staff to the district and their mentors through the whole first through fourth year of their teaching experience. And so we use Dr. Radford's books to build that curriculum out. It was wonderful. And so here I am, came back to New Jersey. I'm in a wonderful school district. I have only wonderful things to say about my current school district. And that's it.

[00:05:02.69] CAROL RADFORD: And you're teaching second grade or something? What are you teaching?

[00:05:05.99] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: Well, yeah, so well, right now, I'm teaching third through eighth.

[00:05:09.50] CAROL RADFORD: Third.

[00:05:09.94] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: [INAUDIBLE].

[00:05:10.77] CAROL RADFORD: Oh, three through eight.

[00:05:11.59] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: But this summer, I'm going to be doing a little different, kindergarten to second grade.

[00:05:15.74] CAROL RADFORD: Oh, that's what I saw.

[00:05:17.53] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: [LAUGHS]

[00:05:17.69] CAROL RADFORD: Oh my goodness.

[00:05:18.67] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: Yeah.

[00:05:18.98] CAROL RADFORD: Well, that's exciting. And did you say at the beginning that you were teaching in a juvenile detention center?

[00:05:25.55] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: I was, an Indianapolis juvenile detention center. And I co-taught algebra. [CHUCKLES]

[00:05:30.66] CAROL RADFORD: So that was your launch into teaching. And then, how did you get your credential? Did-- you just went back to college after that or--

[00:05:38.81] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: I did. I had a bachelor's degree from Rutgers. And so I took that and my military experience. And we-- I enrolled in Taylor University and got my teaching licensing for early elementary and elementary teaching, and then eventually into Special Ed, and then my principal license. But it was all really a little bit at a time.

[00:05:58.25] CAROL RADFORD: Right. Following the breadcrumbs, they call it. You're following. And you were in the military as well.

[00:06:02.94] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: I was. I was in the Army for 10 years.

[00:06:04.97] CAROL RADFORD: Well, thank you for your service. All right, Jim, what's your story? The master English teacher.

[00:06:11.87] JIM BURKE: Well, I think it's fascinating to hear Jennifer talk about her path. I think one of the things with anybody to become a teacher, very few people seem to have a nice, straight, linear path that they lead. It's not like for most people. It's not like a family business that you jump into and follow along. So I come from a family of wonderful, supportive parents. But my dad dropped out of high school in the ninth grade or thereabouts.

[00:06:43.19] And so I come from a very working class background and graduated from high school in the bottom 10% of my class. So I really was not-- I think if you'd come to me at the end of high school and said, so I know, I know, I know. You're really, really way down there at the bottom. But just flash forward. Just so you know, you're going to actually become a teacher. And then, fun fact for your current teachers, you're going to grow up and write books telling people how to be a teacher.

[00:07:13.24] [LAUGHTER]

[00:07:14.19] CAROL RADFORD: I love that.

[00:07:14.99] JIM BURKE: And I--

[00:07:15.29] CAROL RADFORD: [LAUGHS] Oh my god.

[00:07:15.80] JIM BURKE: My high school teachers would just be terrified.

[00:07:18.11] CAROL RADFORD: [LAUGHS]

[00:07:19.46] And my adolescence was completely consumed by tennis, which ended up in the long run having an impact on me as a teacher. But I used to play the national hard core championships at the club that is in the parking lot where I ended up spending 28 years teaching. So I just think life is very strange. If you'd walked up to me at 14 and said, before you go play your match, just so you know, you're going to actually come back here as an adult and be an English teacher in that school that your mom was parking in front of for most of your life, I would have just-- it would have just been the most absurd thing.

[00:07:56.04] So I think in a very strange way, all these things end up part-- contributing to my formation as a person who became a teacher. I wasn't doing school well at all. But I was learning and being taught at a very high level for tennis. And I learned what it takes to be able to learn how to do something well. And I think later on, that really played an important part.

[00:08:25.03] And then, when I did get out of high school, I realized like, OK, so everybody went away to college except me. And so I was-- so after my first year in college, where I was studying business-- because isn't that what men do? You get a degree in business so you can make money, I guess. If you come from a family where nobody's ever gone to college, nobody has any idea what it-- how it works. I think we're a little better these days at guiding kids, especially through certain programs.

[00:08:54.87] So after that first year at the community college, where I began to wake up and learn, basically, what we would call now the academic literacy, so I think that even that experience is a formative experience into the teacher that I became because I really had to learn how to be a student. I had to learn, develop an identity of myself as somebody who does the work of a student. And I wish I'd kept some of them. But for my first semester in college, I had textbooks where the whole chapter was highlighted.

[00:09:28.41] CAROL RADFORD: [LAUGHS] I love that.

[00:09:30.15] JIM BURKE: We called it--

[00:09:30.36] CAROL RADFORD: Remember the yellow highlighters. [LAUGHS]

[00:09:31.77] JIM BURKE: Yeah, mine was blue because I was a boy.

[00:09:33.44] CAROL RADFORD: Yours was blue? [LAUGHS]

[00:09:34.16] JIM BURKE: And then, that-- and I felt like I was being serious like, I am doing college level reading.

[00:09:41.13] CAROL RADFORD: Yes.

[00:09:41.52] JIM BURKE: And then, of course, when the test would come along, I would think like, well, how does this help? I just have 30 pages of blue. And after that first year, I had a chance to go up one summer to pull out trees in 110 degree weather up in northern California. Or I saw a job on a board to go be a camp counselor. And there was-- I'd never worked with kids before. But something about that just was yanking at me. And so I took that job after my freshman year in college and just had a really transformative experience of just working with kids and realizing that kids were something that I wanted to get to know more about.

[00:10:23.35] And then, when I went down to college in the fall in Santa Barbara, I visited the family of the Bradys down in LA. And I visited the family where two of these kids that I really had a great connection with were. And it's a strange thing. But I wasn't a big coffee drinker yet at the time. And I sat there surrounded by the family and the two Brady boys. And I drank coffee and talked all night long.

[00:10:50.30] And I went up to the guest room. And I was so wired. I had no chance of going to sleep that night. And this conversation erupted in my head about like, look, this is so clearly what you're interested in doing is working with kids. And at about 4:00 that morning, I just had this epiphany of like, well, then obviously, you should just be a teacher and figure out-- so there really was this definitive moment. And then from that point on, I came back to Santa Barbara and changed my major to cognitive psychology. And I learned all about learning.

[00:11:24.71] And the one other funny thing about some of this stuff is that I ended up making a career as an English teacher and writing a lot of books about teaching English. I never actually got a degree in English. And I think one of the things that has really shaped me as a teacher in ways that are hard to plan for is I just end up feeling like I came in through the back door on a lot of things.

[00:11:48.33] So I have a degree in cognition and learning, which very few teachers actually study. It seems a little bit relevant to being a teacher. And then, when I got that degree in English, I ended up working at a variety of experiences. But I started as a Special Ed teacher. And I think that Jennifer can talk about what it's like to be a Special Ed teacher these days. It's changed a lot. But I think all these experiences really contributed. So I-- my first efforts as a teacher were with kids that you could never assume that they knew how to do anything. And I think it just really had an impact on the kind of teacher that I ended up becoming.

[00:12:28.98] CAROL RADFORD: Thank you, Jim. So you both have very different pathways. And yet you're both teaching, in some ways, Special Ed. I think our listeners can benefit and tie your stories to their stories because what we're learning is the intuitive voice. Jim's intuitive voice told him to become a teacher. Jen had someone from the outside say, you're a teacher. [CHUCKLES] You need to do this. So we all have these various paths that come to us. This podcast is about wisdom that happens along that pathway and that inner wisdom that guides us or that we reflect upon.

[00:13:12.78] So I invited each of you to share a story from an insight that may have happened during your time in teaching where there was some significant growth, where you had that epiphany, like Jim had when he went, I'm going to be a teacher. I actually like work-- something that happened to you that you can share with our audience that may resonate with them or maybe get them to think about and reflect on their own career. Jen, what shows up for you as something significant that shaped you as the teacher you are today?

[00:13:50.98] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: For me, so when I was in Indianapolis before we moved to Illinois, I had a mentor who was essentially angel on Earth for me. Her name is Lisa Roselle. She's still in Indianapolis. She's a district administrator. And she had me-- I worked for her, essentially. I was the emotional disability specialist. So I worked with students who had really high needs and were in self-contained classrooms.

[00:14:16.27] And believe it or not, we had a lot of teacher turnover. And so one of our classrooms, we just could not get a teacher in there that would stay. And so me being the specialist, that was essentially what happened is I got put in that classroom as a teacher for, I think it was maybe two months. And I had a lot of challenges because I hadn't been in that type of classroom for a long time. The behaviors were really, really big. And it was grades two to four.

[00:14:47.57] And so I leaned on my paraprofessional so much. But I definitely leaned on one of our specialists there who helped with behavior. And we-- really, it became like a marriage. He understood what I needed and I understood what he needed because we communicated so much. And the kids in the classroom knew you could not ask one for something and the other would be on a different page. We were so connected. And I think that communication really changed me.

[00:15:16.58] But one thing, when I was going through this time and trying to really help these little people be successful and just find that they could trust me in our classroom was I would talk to my mentor about all the issues we were having. And she said, you have to make yourself part of the problem or you can't make yourself part of the solution.

[00:15:34.91] And that's something that I've kept with me since then. And this was, what, 2017? And I've kept that with me the whole time. And every time I have something I can't get over in my-- a problem with another staff member or somebody who I'm working with, I always remind myself, OK, if you're not part of that problem, you can't fix it. You can't be part of the solution. And that's-- I think what it was is just communicating with my team and making myself part of that problem.

[00:16:04.52] CAROL RADFORD: So you were identifying the problem. You were-- is that what your mentor meant, to identify what the problem is here, that the kids are doing the go to this person to get that or that and--

[00:16:18.92] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: Yeah.

[00:16:19.91] CAROL RADFORD: That's how you mean, be part of the problem?

[00:16:24.44] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: Yeah, and when I talk about accepting feedback, it's very-- when you're doing everything you possibly can, accepting feedback is really hard. And so I started to put myself out there and ask for feedback. And I would ask her for feedback. I would ask my partner in the classroom for feedback. And we would really just try to be part of the solution in that way of, what's the actual problem going on?

[00:16:47.90] How can we communicate better? How can we make sure that if I'm out of the room, he's saying the same thing I am and if he's out of the room, I'm saying the same thing he is? And I'm-- we really did see a lot of growth out of those little people in our classroom. And I do think that they felt safe after we had been with them for a long time. So I think that answered your question.

[00:17:07.08] CAROL RADFORD: Yes. Thank you.

[00:17:08.24] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: Yeah.

[00:17:08.63] CAROL RADFORD: And, Jim. So, Jim, what story do you have to share that's some significant moment in time that you remember from the classroom that's a real experience? Because wisdom, I think, comes from that real experience, like Jen was saying.

[00:17:26.57] JIM BURKE: I'm going to answer your question. But I'm going to bounce a question back at you as a transition, Carol, because I love the title of your new book. And that idea of weekly wisdom for beginning teachers, the poet Rilke has this line that a lot of people like to quote, which is that, basically, every time I sit down to write a poem, it's a poem that's never been written. And I'm a first time writer all over again. And I'm always a beginner.

[00:17:52.88] And when I think about-- when I listen to Jennifer talk about the different contexts in which she's moved into, it seems like she moves up and down to grades and contexts in different ways than I have. Do you-- I guess I'm asking this of you, Carol. Do you find that a lot of the people that you talk to, even if they were experienced teachers, maintain a sense of that being a beginning teacher to be open to it, but also come to the challenges with an excitement of new problems to solve?

[00:18:28.63] CAROL RADFORD: I think-- that's a great question, as we are all reflecting on and look-- using reflection and inquiry to look back on what we've done. And that's what that book was. When I started teaching, I wish I'd known, caused very experienced teachers to look back, like Jennifer just had to do.

[00:18:50.95] JIM BURKE: Right.

[00:18:51.10] CAROL RADFORD: And she wrote that story for the book. She had to stop and think, well, what-- where did I learn something? [LAUGHS] Instead of where-- a lot of times, we're always looking ahead to, what do I do next? Like you said with the poem, a new poem. And mentors, I work mostly with mentor teachers. And the research even does show that mentor teachers say they learn just as much as the beginning teachers by going through those steps of guiding someone.

[00:19:23.59] So Jen's-- Jennifer, your experience of two people being on the same page, the common language, the reading each other's minds. But it was intentionally to solve a problem of very bad misbehavior in the classroom that was caused by splitting. The kids figured out how to split the team. So back to Jim's question, I believe that insight, as I talk to people, comes from our own-- taking our own time to reflect. And look back at those nuggets, if you will, that guide us to be more intentional teachers.

[00:20:02.34] And I'm calling it wisdom. I think it's teacher wisdom. That's why this podcast is really so special and why I agreed to host is because I believe our voices-- Jim, your voice, you've been writing and doing all this and being honest about like, you're not the perfect candidate. You just defined that you weren't the perfect candidate to be a teacher because you were the lowest. You just broke that stigma for people who might be listening or have kids that are like, oh, wow, you could still be a teacher if you're not successful in high school?

[00:20:35.03] JIM BURKE: Right.

[00:20:35.21] CAROL RADFORD: Yeah, look at Jim. He wrote 30 books. So yeah, this question back at me is I do believe that our personal reflection has to be intentional to find that wisdom through story. I like it through stories because I think it's more interesting than just saying, do this, do that. So yes.

[00:20:57.31] JIM BURKE: Well, I definitely think that framing the story is a great idea because I think once-- especially when you enter into a career that one could describe as having more of a sense of vocation, there is a narrative structure that you're entering into.

[00:21:13.03] CAROL RADFORD: Yes.

[00:21:13.21] JIM BURKE: You all had-- we all had teachers. And we see the best teachers and the lives that they had.

[00:21:19.30] CAROL RADFORD: Yes.

[00:21:19.43] JIM BURKE: And we think like, that's the story that I want my life to tell.

[00:21:22.00] CAROL RADFORD: Yes. But everybody doesn't know the pathway that you two just shared. And what we're hearing on this podcast is, as the listeners are listening in, when you hear all these episodes, you're going to hear everybody's pathway is so different. And yet, students might think it was this linear path.

[00:21:39.87] JIM BURKE: Right.

[00:21:40.21] CAROL RADFORD: You just say you want to be a teacher. And then, you become a teacher. Well, that isn't the case. So this is a great podcast for potential aspiring teachers as well to just hear.

[00:21:53.91] JIM BURKE: Well, I want to pick up on that.

[00:21:54.92] CAROL RADFORD: Yes.

[00:21:55.17] JIM BURKE: Because one of the interesting connections-- so I do want to answer your question more directly about a pivotal moment. But one of the things that Jennifer and I share in our own way is she had her time in the military. And all of Angela Duckworth's studies, at least her initial studies about grit, were anchored in the military. What allowed people who got through basic training and who got through the Army Ranger training or whatever?

[00:22:23.40] And one of the things that I see a lot, and I-- it concerns me, is amongst younger teachers, especially new teachers, is this feeling of thumbs up or thumbs down like, oh, my lesson plan was like an exploding cigar in my face today. And if I was really meant to be a teacher, that wouldn't happen. So I'm out.

[00:22:48.10] And I've seen versions of that in a number of situations with my own experience with having student teachers. And that experience, that when you talk about wisdom, I think I was told by, actually, the head of my Special Ed program when I was-- when I was going into the Peace Corps overseas, he said, it's going to be harder than anything you've ever done.

[00:23:13.90] And you need to do whatever you can to move through that because everybody knows that if you can survive that kind of experience, you're the kind of person that can handle anything. And I think that experience of you going through the military-- and we didn't compare. Yes, the military guys used to make fun of me like, oh, the Peace Corps is here.

[00:23:35.58] CAROL RADFORD: [CHUCKLES]

[00:23:36.73] JIM BURKE: And we're all safe now. But that experience for both of us on-- has to have that shared element of going through some very, very difficult challenges. And I do think that when-- I was telling you guys before we started filming, my teaching assignment in the Peace Corps was to teach woodshop all day to 12 Special Ed students without any wood. So making teaching a part of the lesson plan every day.

[00:24:04.84] CAROL RADFORD: Right. If you could do that-- Yes. I want to--

[00:24:07.76] JIM BURKE: And that wisdom of being able to get through those challenging experiences was essential.

[00:24:13.67] CAROL RADFORD: Right. I want to get back to a couple of things that you said that I think are important here. And that I do want to hear your pivotal moment.

[00:24:19.67] JIM BURKE: Sure.

[00:24:20.12] CAROL RADFORD: But all of these are pivotal. This desire for the beginning teachers to be perfect or to do everything well, I am seeing that as well. And that's why part of the conversation and the wisdom that we need to share is this, is you're going to have a bad day. You're not going to have a perfect lesson plan. And the teacher's role isn't just stand and deliver content in a perfect way.

[00:24:46.34] It's that human quality behind the stand and deliver content, the way our schools are structured. So what's happening is we do have a lot of career changers. And in some ways, the Peace Corps and the military, that's a career changer. It wasn't, I decided to become a teacher. I went to college. I did the pedagogy. That's what I call a traditional path.

[00:25:10.04] JIM BURKE: Right.

[00:25:10.52] CAROL RADFORD: And we do not have as many traditional pathway teachers. So the listeners who are listening probably say, yeah, you're right. I am-- and some called it alternative route. I spent years helping math, and science, and military people become teachers and teaching the hardest, hard to staff school in the country.

[00:25:30.96] So these career changers also have to understand that they bring wisdom from their other career. And that's what I'm hearing you say. And that we are not doing a good enough job with pulling in those other aspects of the previous career to the, quote, stand and deliver this math content, this English content, or whatever, because that's a lot of wisdom that we need to harvest. So thank you for bringing that up.

[00:26:01.49] JIM BURKE: Right.

[00:26:02.03] CAROL RADFORD: I appreciate it.

[00:26:02.15] JIM BURKE: And don't you think that a lot of those teachers, Carol, like to-- those later career teachers, they also bring that wisdom in from basically what we call the real world. And so they--

[00:26:11.92] CAROL RADFORD: Yes.

[00:26:12.17] JIM BURKE: You get a 40-year-old who was in the tech industry, sees a 16-year-old doing something, and then they're in a position to say like, hey, look, buddy, that is not going to fly in the real world.

[00:26:23.96] CAROL RADFORD: Right.

[00:26:24.23] JIM BURKE: You've got to push through what's difficult for you and learn how to solve those problems.

[00:26:27.92] CAROL RADFORD: Yes. And we've seen the stories of brilliant people from Harvard who have their content, MIT, everywhere. But you have to learn how to have a relationship with the kids as well.

[00:26:38.03] JIM BURKE: Right.

[00:26:38.36] CAROL RADFORD: So there's-- yeah, we need both. But I like to frame it as wisdom or-- and also, well-being, which we're going to get into. But I want to hear your pivotal moment. In two minutes--

[00:26:51.92] JIM BURKE: Sure.

[00:26:52.35] CAROL RADFORD: --what's your pivotal-- because I think it's important. You have a lot of wisdom.

[00:26:56.25] JIM BURKE: So I think nothing made a bigger difference in, I think, ways both personally and professionally than-- I started writing about my teaching. Even as a student teacher, I got my first piece published about a day in the life of a student teacher. And then, in about my second or third year of teaching, I was writing some things for Teacher Magazine or whatnot. And I got a-- it was either a letter or it might have been an email, but this might even be before email, from Carol Jago, who a lot of people know from her work as a teacher in-- and an author.

[00:27:31.46] And so she sent me this email. And she said, oh, I'm seeing all this stuff you're writing. What are you reading? And I wrote back and I said-- because you can't talk to Carol Jago without talking about reading. And she-- and I said, oh, I don't have any time because I'm learning how to teach all these books. And she wrote back and she said, that's ridiculous. People make time for the things that they think are important. Get a New Yorker subscription. Even if you just look at the cartoons every week, your life will be enriched.

[00:28:00.66] And I did. I just-- and a woman I used to work with used to say, we all need somebody that we can't stand the idea of disappointing. And Carol Jago, as well as Diane McClain, the woman that said that, became those people. When they said like, what are you reading, it became really important to me to not say like, oh, nothing. I'm just reading Lord of the Flies because I'm teaching it. And that it just-- I never got off that escalator or whatever you want to call it.

[00:28:32.97] And nothing-- and then, it grew into professional reading. And it just became such a presence in my life. And then as time has gone on, you discover audio books. So if you're commuting to work, you can read more. But that-- and so probably one of my favorite comments that a student ever made about me as a teacher, because I'm constantly referring to books and stuff like that, this guy from Stanford studied my class for a year. And he's interviewing this student. And the student says, so weird. Mr. Burke talks about this stuff like it really matters.

[00:29:05.94] CAROL RADFORD: [LAUGHS] I love that.

[00:29:07.83] JIM BURKE: Which I--

[00:29:08.69] CAROL RADFORD: I love it.

[00:29:10.32] JIM BURKE: So I--

[00:29:11.07] CAROL RADFORD: This is going to be meaningful to me. [LAUGHS]

[00:29:13.02] JIM BURKE: Yeah, because what a weird idea that talking about books really matters.

[00:29:19.01] CAROL RADFORD: I know.

[00:29:19.30] JIM BURKE: So that moment with Carol-- and that's still a part of our relationship. If we trade emails today, it's, what are you reading or [INAUDIBLE]?

[00:29:27.27] CAROL RADFORD: What are you reading?

[00:29:27.81] JIM BURKE: I just read this book.

[00:29:28.63] CAROL RADFORD: Yeah, I love that. The other piece of what you said that I think is important is when we talk to teachers at beginning, mentor, it doesn't matter, it is, I don't have time. So when I would be working with mentoring conversations, or I worked with Jennifer and her district about making time for-- well, we don't have time to talk. We don't have time. So you-- it's a bigger message than just reading. It's the, how do we respond when someone asks us what we're doing? And I'm not saying that I would have said, I should read more. But it might be something else. I should walk more.

[00:30:05.88] JIM BURKE: Right.

[00:30:06.27] CAROL RADFORD: I should-- so we have to be attentive to what people are saying around us because everybody is a mentor for us. And that's how you made that decision to become a teacher. You say it was the coffee. It was your intuitive voice knocking on you, your door. And Jennifer saying yes when somebody said, you're a teacher, she could have walked away and said, no, I'm not or I don't have time. So these are-- this is the hidden wisdom nuggets that contribute to our behavior and our choices. Our choices come if we don't miss them, if we don't stay on this path and we block everything out. So thank you for sharing that.

[00:30:49.53] Now, for the podcast listeners, we do want to give practical tips because everybody's like, I want some takeaways. What can I actually do? You guys have been teaching. And I'm a beginner. So I asked you to prepare something that teachers could do anytime, but around creating community in the classroom, because that's always important at the beginning of the school year and all year long. And all year long. So something practical that our listeners could actually do. Jennifer, what do you have for us?

[00:31:25.82] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: Yeah, I have a few things. I think the first thing, obviously, is relationships first. Kids do not learn from teachers they don't like. I've heard that a million times. And they know when you don't like them. So I think that building a genuine relationship with your students is, number one, you cannot teach them how to write a perfect sentence if they don't really like you or they think you don't like them.

[00:31:49.09] Another thing is that to stay-- not stay, but become the calmest person in the room, they need to trust you. And they need to trust you in the same way they trust a parent, because you're with them more than their parents are. So you're in the classroom with them for how many hours a day? They need to trust that you have their best interest in mind, that you want to see them succeed, that you love them, that you want to see them grow up to be these wonderful humans.

[00:32:15.12] And I think that the last thing I want to share is to have a fresh start every day. I learned this with having a self-contained classroom and kids who have these big, big behaviors they cannot control. Next day, they'll walk into the classroom and they think that you're going to have a grudge against them and they're going to-- you're going to treat them badly.

[00:32:32.28] But when they see that you're excited to see them and you're not holding anything against them, they're relieved. And then, that builds trust too. But then, also, that helps you to be able to teach them, that you're more likely to get through to a little person who is relieved that you're not mad at them anymore.

[00:32:53.98] And I use that today even with kids who don't have bad behaviors in the classroom. Sometimes, they don't perform the way that they-- you know they can to their full potential. And they know, they know you're a little disappointed that they didn't do what they were supposed to do or do what you expected them to do. But the next day is brand new and fresh.

[00:33:10.98] CAROL RADFORD: So do you actually articulate that and say it to them like, OK, Joey, fresh start today and smile? And so there's a physical behavior that they can see? Is there a cue that you use, that teachers could actually copy what you're saying?

[00:33:29.52] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: Yeah, I don't remind them when they did something wrong the day before. I'll have pet names for all of my students. I call them nuggets.

[00:33:38.52] CAROL RADFORD: [LAUGHS]

[00:33:38.82] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: They'll be little sweet things I call my own kids. And then they realize, oh, she's actually not mad at me.

[00:33:46.02] CAROL RADFORD: Right.

[00:33:46.43] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: And when they come in the room and they see me treat the kid who always does the right thing the same way I'm treating them, [INAUDIBLE].

[00:33:51.99] CAROL RADFORD: Ah, OK.

[00:33:53.61] JIM BURKE: Yeah.

[00:33:54.21] CAROL RADFORD: I love that. Is there one thing that comes to mind that's specific about building the relationship at the beginning? A beginner might say, yeah, but how do you build a relationship? It's the beginning of school. Did you do something specific that helped to build that relationship?

[00:34:12.18] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: Yeah, [SIGHS], I try to get to know each kid, their families, the things they like. I have students right now, soccer is super big in New Jersey. Soccer is everything. And so my little guys have been obsessed with the World Cup this year. And they all have their favorite players. And so when they come into the classroom, I might call them by their favorite player.

[00:34:35.61] CAROL RADFORD: Oh, cool. I love that.

[00:34:37.05] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: [INAUDIBLE]. And then, they know I'm listening. But then, it brightens their spirit a little bit.

[00:34:41.70] CAROL RADFORD: Right.

[00:34:42.60] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: And then, some have little siblings. And I'll ask them how their baby siblings are, or some sports, or anything like that. But getting to know them. And I don't put a lot of pressure on myself to have the perfect classroom. I am not a TikTok teacher. I am not an Instagram teacher. You can't walk into my classroom and everything's color-coded. That's so much pressure.

[00:35:02.94] CAROL RADFORD: Right.

[00:35:03.39] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: It doesn't help. It doesn't help.

[00:35:05.34] CAROL RADFORD: So what do you think about Messi going to Miami? He's coming over.

[00:35:09.20] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: [CHUCKLES] Well, I've been--

[00:35:10.20] CAROL RADFORD: Have you been following the world soccer?

[00:35:12.45] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: [CHUCKLES]

[00:35:13.21] CAROL RADFORD: My son is big into soccer. So I'm learning Premier. I had to watch Ted Lasso. I have to--

[00:35:18.90] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: [LAUGHS]

[00:35:19.44] CAROL RADFORD: --get all the soccer lingo so I can talk to my own adult sons, who like soccer.

[00:35:24.63] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: Yeah, no, I saw that in the news. And I have to get my update because I've been out of class.

[00:35:27.69] CAROL RADFORD: You better get your update.

[00:35:28.71] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: I got to get my update.

[00:35:29.64] CAROL RADFORD: Because you better get your soccer because they'll be looking for two days of you to come in and talk soccer.

[00:35:34.35] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: Yeah. [CHUCKLES]

[00:35:35.12] CAROL RADFORD: So thank you for that. Yeah, what about you, Jim? Years of-- what are your biggest successful community building beginning of the year? What should people be doing?

[00:35:47.45] JIM BURKE: Well, in so many ways, I just echo everything that Jennifer just said. I didn't know that being a TikTok or Instagram teacher meant having a color-coordinated room.

[00:36:00.14] CAROL RADFORD: [CHUCKLES]

[00:36:01.43] JIM BURKE: And I will say, though, that I think that-- I don't know what your experience was the last couple of years, Jen. So I retired in June of '22. So I taught all throughout the pandemic. And the '21, '22 school year was 100% online for us because we lost access to our actual school space in our program. And it really made me think about the importance of relationships at a whole different level than I had ever thought about it before.

[00:36:40.12] So in a lot of ways, I would just say, 100% agreement with the idea of making connections. But what are some of the things that I do that I think make a big difference? And I think these are-- you can't overemphasize this. I read somewhere recently that there was some research done in the last year, I believe. And maybe this is colored by the COVID experience. But there was some research done that found that, I think it was only 20, 25% of students felt like their students-- their teachers actually had a connection to them.

[00:37:15.07] And I think I understand that more in the-- because of all the different obstacles during COVID. But I draw a lot of energy from my students. And I think going back to what I was saying earlier about my own experience, I think what I understand intuitively, maybe originally, but much more intentionally over time is if you're a kid like I was, where your family, nobody went to college. And I don't-- I think if I just said I wasn't going to go to college, my parents would have said, OK, well, get a job. And so I think the importance of those connections were just essential to me.

[00:37:58.87] So one of the things that I do-- so I've taught high school all these years, and mostly juniors and seniors in the last 10, 15 years. And I want them to leave-- one of the questions that I ask myself when I'm designing that first day at school is, what do I want the kids to leave my very, very first class thinking and feeling about my class and about me?

[00:38:23.86] And so because they're juniors or seniors, I want them leaving feeling like, OK, that was a little different. I'll give them-- I'll come back. I'll give them one more day before I write it off as like, just another English class. So on the first day, for years, I've put up as they walk into class a famous painting called Wander Above a Sea of Mist. I don't tell them what the title is.

[00:38:51.72] And I just use it to have them start generating questions. They have to-- what do they think it's titled? And why do they think that title? And then, they have to talk with each other. So I'm-- there are no wrong questions. There are no wrong responses. So I want them to immediately feel like, OK, so I'm welcomed into the conversation.

[00:39:15.51] There's room for what I think out of the gate. He's not telling me things. He's asking me things. And then, having them turn towards each other to use those questions as a base for discussion so that they leave the first day feeling like, OK, so active, interactive, engaging, room for my questions, not just one-directional. And then within that-- and then, we'll talk about it as a whole class.

[00:39:47.52] Before they would have ever shown up to my class that first day, and this has become easier because of the school learning management systems like Canvas, I will-- as soon as all the kids' names and stuff become available online, for years, I've sent an email out to my classes with just stuff that's all about-- it's not like, be sure to bring a binder. It's very much about connection, maybe sharing a couple of things that I did over the summer so they get a little bit of a sense of who this person is, maybe a little bit about just how much I love teaching English.

[00:40:28.02] I want them knowing that they're coming in to the class of a guy who actually thinks this stuff matters and maybe some little hint about where we're going to go. And I just think that those efforts to build relationships, a lot of them circle back around to what Jennifer was saying. The number of times, especially in the last couple of years, that kids have said that it made such a difference that I recognized their birthday, it's the smallest thing. But the difference that it makes because, especially in the last couple of years, where kids just felt so isolated, you just can't exaggerate the-- how much that means to kids.

[00:41:15.11] And then, the one other thing that I would say is, on that first day, I've got-- well, the last couple of years, I've done it as a Google form. But a student interest survey. So it's just a sense to-- it might be like, finish this sentence. When I think of English, my past experiences, the word that comes to mind is? So that can be dangerous.

[00:41:42.72] CAROL RADFORD: Yes, I-- [LAUGHS]

[00:41:44.01] JIM BURKE: And--

[00:41:44.37] CAROL RADFORD: I bet you have gotten a lot of different responses.

[00:41:46.14] JIM BURKE: But now, talking about my class--

[00:41:46.98] CAROL RADFORD: [LAUGHS]

[00:41:47.28] JIM BURKE: So I want to hear what they're saying. And what's your favorite book on a scale of one to 10? How much do you enjoy reading? It's not hard core analysis. But it's from their own perspective. Instead of just looking at their grades, getting a sense of what they value. Are they on sports teams? That kind of stuff, because if they are on the soccer team or whatever, it just matters a huge amount to them to say like, hey, how'd that game go yesterday?

[00:42:21.93] CAROL RADFORD: I think clearly, you're both clear-- you're both sharing about relationships and getting to know the kids. I especially like the birthday because I like to celebrate my birthday week. It's not even a day anymore. It's like, I want a lot of fun things. So when students see them on the wall or when you say happy birthday, I haven't heard that one before. And I really want to underscore that special activity that we can do as teachers.

[00:42:51.93] JIM BURKE: Carol, can I add one piece about the birthday?

[00:42:54.08] CAROL RADFORD: Yes.

[00:42:54.71] JIM BURKE: It never would have occurred to me until about two years ago when a student was really distressed. And I said, what's going on? Everybody in your whole social media sphere knows that's your birthday now. And so to not get recognized on your birthday or to just have your uncle Bob and grandma send--

[00:43:22.82] CAROL RADFORD: I see.

[00:43:23.40] JIM BURKE: --you a thing over your social media feed is-- it's so magnified now. If kids don't get-- even adults. If they-- nobody-- everybody knew because it was online.

[00:43:36.98] CAROL RADFORD: Nobody remembered. Right.

[00:43:37.74] JIM BURKE: The message went out and nobody even gave me a like.

[00:43:41.10] CAROL RADFORD: Right. Acknowledged it. Acknowledge it. Yeah, well, that's a whole other conversation that we clearly could have in another time about the influence of the social media on this connections. So we're winding down. I have a couple more questions I just want to know in a sentence or two, Jennifer, how do you stay balanced? What do you do outside of school to maintain your sanity so you can come back in fresh? Do you have any special magic bullet ideas that we can take away from you? [LAUGHS]

[00:44:16.48] What do you have?

[00:44:18.00] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: One, I've shared this with first year teachers when I was in North Chicago because this is something that's worked for me, is I like to get dressed up for work a little bit. So I'll wear slacks and a nicer shirt. But those are work clothes. And they don't feel very good [LAUGHS] for the most part. They're a little--

[00:44:33.07] CAROL RADFORD: OK to work. [LAUGHS]

[00:44:35.29] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: So when I get home from work, I change. Right away, I'll change into my home clothes, my play clothes, essentially. And I think that that's a really good transition cognitively for me to go from work to not work, whether it's I'm working out, I'm putting workout clothes on, or whatever it might be. But that's-- just that transition. And it helps me remember, OK, so I'm no longer on work mode. I'm on home mode. So focus in on connecting with my son, connecting with my parents, connecting with my husband, my dog. So I think that's one of the things I stay true to for myself is if I'm in work clothes, I'm in work mode. So get out of that, all right?

[00:45:10.69] CAROL RADFORD: [LAUGHS] All right, I love-- thank you. And it's clear. And it's something that we can do. All right, Jim, what's your way of decompressing, filling yourself with joy in a different way?

[00:45:24.74] JIM BURKE: Sure. Something is. The emotions of learning, how hard it is, you'd think it would be easy to throw this little tiny fly on a little line. It's much harder than I've ever realized. And it constantly reminds me that the things that we ask our students to do that we've spent years, and years, and years learning how to do them are not often intuitive or not often easy.

[00:45:48.09] So fly fishing is one. My wife and I had three kids. They're all up into their 20s and 30s now. But those years, I made a real point of going to the games, and even if that meant sitting in the bleachers grading papers or whatever it was, but being present. And my wife's mother, who is going to be 97 next month, lives with us. And so the focus on our family has just been a very grounding, supportive part of my life that's taught me that it's important to keep your values clear and not--

[00:46:29.86] CAROL RADFORD: Thank you.

[00:46:30.73] JIM BURKE: --let the justification of like, I've got papers. I'm sorry. I can't--

[00:46:34.26] CAROL RADFORD: Yes. I don't have time for that. So I like the way you shared about the fly fishing and made the connection to our students that are learning things, that we can be impatient about that they don't pick up as quickly because we've done them multiple times over years. And I had that same experience when I learned how to play golf. And I was just like, why can't I just hit this little ball?

[00:47:00.49] JIM BURKE: Yeah.

[00:47:01.30] CAROL RADFORD: My arm, my shoulder. Keep your head down I think my head is down. Isn't it down? And to relate it back to our students and our teaching, I think, is a humbling way for us as teachers, especially those of us who are very experienced teachers for decades, to understand. The other piece that I'm getting from both of you as well is that we're the whole-- there's a whole teacher. It's not just the stand and deliver this special needs curriculum or English.

[00:47:34.99] It's we are that whole person. We want to talk about fly fishing or golf too. As much as we're intentionally trying to get to know our kids, I think it's great for them to get to know us. And that's that whole circle of wisdom that we're talking about today in this podcast. So as we close out, I just want to ask each of you. Jennifer, what did it feel like to be published in this book?

[00:48:05.29] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: Complete honor because I got to work with you for so long implementing the curriculum and working with the mentors. And I hated leaving my job in North Chicago. I loved working with the staff. So it was just such an honor to be highlighted in a book, and because I do have a passion for supporting new teachers and helping them just stay afloat.

[00:48:26.91] CAROL RADFORD: So I'm glad this was your first. And then, your doctorate will be next. Yay.

[00:48:30.75] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: Yeah.

[00:48:31.74] CAROL RADFORD: And, Jim, you have multiple books. But can you just give a shout out to this new one that has just come out, the title. Why should people be reading this book? It's really important. Give us a little information.

[00:48:48.41] JIM BURKE: The book that I've come out with now, Teaching Better Day by Day, is-- it's a book. But really, it's a planner. It's a planner with a book within it. And so I've been-- we've talked a lot about time in here. Time is something that has always-- I think it obsesses all teachers. And one year, when I first started teaching at Burlingame, we had 59 minutes in class. And then they said, we're going to add a period. And we're going to shave four minutes off or something like that from each class.

[00:49:25.45] So we were expected to do as much in less time. And I think that sums up so much of what teachers are asked to do. So it's always been a bit of an obsession with me. And then, how do you design lessons for those-- within those constraints of time that are effective, that also take into consideration your own personal and professional needs?

[00:49:52.34] So one of the things that I really like about the conversation today is it just reflects so much of-- at the heart of the Teaching Better Day by Day planner is this idea of these six commitments that I ask teachers to make to themselves and their students. And I like that word, commitments. You can just hear the concept of commitment behind everything that Jennifer's saying that she does.

[00:50:18.40] It's different than standards. It's just saying like, can you make-- can you agree that these things are important enough to at least be trying to do them in your class? And then within the planner, every-- with each month's section, there's a thing that I'm especially happy with, which is called the Personal Professional Development Pages.

[00:50:42.84] So I took 12 different books, all from Corwin authors, and wrote up a one-page summary of a central idea from a book, like Jennifer Abrams' book about working with people in classes for better communication, and shrink down just a couple of key ideas. And there's a page facing that that asks you to make connections to your own class about how to apply those to the classroom. So it's, I think--

[00:51:15.30] CAROL RADFORD: Wow, this is a fabulous resource.

[00:51:16.45] JIM BURKE: --a time when teachers don't have a lot of time to read.

[00:51:18.41] CAROL RADFORD: Yes.

[00:51:18.87] JIM BURKE: But they need to.

[00:51:19.77] CAROL RADFORD: Yes, we know people don't have time. But we need to still be reading. And we need to figure out ways to integrate. And it sounds like this book is a perfect-- it's perfect timing for people, for teachers now that are struggling to fit things in and make intelligent choices. So the final question relates to a book that I-- inspired me, by Richard Elmore at Harvard, who wrote a book on how he changed his perspective on education policy over time, teaching and working.

[00:51:56.92] And I think it brings us to the point for all of us and our listeners that we do change over time. And that's what real wisdom is. It isn't just learning something and sticking with it for 30 years. [CHUCKLES] It's learning, and then reflecting, and listening, and shifting as we get more information that makes us more effective teachers. So, Jennifer, I used to think and now I think. What is your shift over time in your career so far as an educator?

[00:52:36.56] JENNIFER BARRIENTOS: [CHUCKLES]

[00:52:37.41]

[00:52:38.19] I used to think that feedback was criticism. And now I know that feedback is not something to necessarily take personal. And it's something to reflect on to be the best version of you. As a first or second year teacher, I had a lot of kids in my classroom who had a lot of needs. And we had a little guy who had autism. And we had a specialist come in. And she just decided that I was doing everything wrong.

[00:53:06.85] And I was destroyed because I felt like I was working to my full capacity. I was doing everything I possibly could. And so she came in and told me that I was doing so many things that he didn't-- he needed what I wasn't doing. And so now I realize like, if I had the ability to take a step back, and keep my feelings out of it, and really see how this could benefit that child, that it's totally different now. Me as a tenth year educator, I understand that if I have feedback from a supervisor, that's not about me personally. It's about how I can be better as an educator.

[00:53:46.22] CAROL RADFORD: Thank you for your honesty and your clarity around this huge shift that changes the whole way you move forward in your career. All right, Jim, what's yours? I used to think and now I think.

[00:54:02.65] JIM BURKE: So I used to think, it's a great frame to think about. I used to think that every lesson plan, every assignment, everything about what I was doing, it had to be perfect, especially maybe when I started writing books. Then you're-- there's this challenge of like, make it worthy of being in a book. And then, life happens.

[00:54:28.51] So in my fourth year of being a teacher, the school year started. And we knew these things were going to happen. But the school year started with my father-in-law passing away two weeks before school. And then school started, which is enough on its own. And then my son, my second son, being born three weeks later, about a month early. And then my father, which we knew was going to happen, also passing away a week later.

[00:55:00.19] And meanwhile, school just goes on. You can't tell your class like, OK, I'll be back in a month and we'll start over. And so I've learned-- the phrase that I would say in my head at moments like that was, sometimes, you have to-- it's got to-- you need to give yourself permission to be a b-minus, c-plus teacher so that you can stay in it, and get through, and continue to enjoy the work and live to be a better teacher another day.

[00:55:29.50] And a couple of years back, I guess five years back, I felt perfectly fine. But I caught a little cancer in April. And so suddenly, I'm out for six weeks. And all sorts of disruption from that. And so I think that that experience of learning to be-- the word that I like is agile. You have to be agile in response. Was anybody able to be even close to a perfect teacher from spring of 2020 to '22? No, definitely not. And if they tried, then they probably just destroyed themselves in the effort.

[00:56:16.26] CAROL RADFORD: I want to thank both of you from the bottom of my heart for taking the time and being so generous and honest with your wisdom and sharing with our listeners so everyone can have such an inspiring start to the school year through your lens of experience and knowledge. And, Tori, I would like to turn it over to you to summarize what the big takeaways are for our listeners.

[00:56:43.84] TORI BACHMAN: Yeah, sure. I have been writing things down left and right over here. Lots of big takeaways. I think the biggest thing that is resonating through this conversation is how important relationships are to both of you in your teaching and your personal lives. But relationships with students, relationships with colleagues, it came up over and over again from your first stories about your journey into education and how you had people who guided you.

[00:57:15.21] Jen, in your case, someone who said outright, you should be a teacher. And, Jim, in your case, it took a little bit more. But it was through relationships that you found your place in teaching. And then, the way that you relate to students really touches me. I think, Jen, you talk very honestly about connecting with kids. And I really appreciated what you say about feedback, and asking for feedback, and not taking it personally, but thinking about how the input from others can actually help you to be more effective and more balanced, even, in your teaching and how you come into the day.

[00:57:59.59] Jim, you also mentioned your conversations with Carol Jago and how that mentoring that you had from other teachers really led you in a different track. So I really appreciate the threaded relationship conversation here. Also really love that you both were really honest about the things that you had to draw on to keep you going in the profession in teaching during the hard moments.

[00:58:29.04] I think that's a really important takeaway for our listeners, that you don't have to be perfect. But you can call on those stumbles down the road to build your wisdom and carry on when it's challenging. So I really, really enjoyed this conversation. I appreciate you both so much. And you too, Carol. Thank you for this.

[00:58:52.41] CAROL RADFORD: Oh, thank you, Tori And thank you to all our listeners. We look forward to having you join us again in our next episode. And have a great start to the school year. Bye for now.

[00:59:04.67] SPEAKER: Thanks, everyone, for joining today's Teacher to Teacher conversation. We hope this time together energized you, inspired you, and reminded you why you chose to become a teacher. You can purchase any of Carol's books and any books mentioned in the podcast online at www.corwin.com. Please leave a review and share this podcast with your colleagues. Thank you for listening to the Corwin Teacher to Teacher podcast, a place to share teacher wisdom and engage in authentic conversations with experienced educators.

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