Series 4 Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast
[00:00:00.41] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Corwin's Leaders Coaching Leaders
podcast with host Peter Dewitt. This podcast is from education leaders for
education leaders. Every week, Peter and our guests get together to share
ideas, put research into practice, and ensure every student is learning not by
chance but by design.
[00:00:19.58] TANYA GHANS: Hi, Peter. Welcome back to this another edition
of Leaders Coaching Leaders. Today we have two really great guests. One, Dr.
Howard Field who is the assistant superintendent of human resources along with
many other hats that he wears all focused on heavily in equity and just
education improvement.
[00:00:44.18] And then we also have Dr. Darrell Diggs who is currently the
assistant director of equity. They are both out of the Missouri St. Louis area
and again, doing really great work specifically on recruitment and retention
for leaders and staff of color in general. But again, I think they have their
hands on a lot of really great initiatives for education.
[00:01:10.87] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. Yeah, they do. Because I have to admit the
more we talked and the more we were talking about some of the organizations,
the Black Male Educators of Saint Louis, and then they're also talking about
EduOpenings, which we get into in the podcast.
[00:01:27.26] But yeah, they are-- when you talk about what are you doing
for the profession, these are two people that are trying to do and succeeding
of doing a lot for the profession. And I think that listeners are going to get
a great deal out of the conversation.
[00:01:44.06] And I think what's important here-- and this is something
Tanya that I actually-- I know Mike Soules is the president of Corwin. He is
going to a guest on the podcast as well. But he and I were talking a couple of
weeks ago through a Zoom meeting, and one of the things that I appreciate very,
very much about Corwin, and I'm not just saying it because it's my publisher,
there has always been a stance when it comes to equity and race. In fact, my
very first book with Corwin is on [INAUDIBLE] LGBT.
[00:02:16.01] TANYA GHANS: Yeah.
[00:02:16.85] PETER DEWITT: And I remember I was very unknown. And Mike
actually had a authors party where there are people in there like Michael [?
Foland ?] and everybody else. And he wanted to talk about one book, and he
talked about mine, and that was 11 years ago.
[00:02:31.32] So to me, there's always been this stance, and I feel like
today's conversation is that. If I was going to say Tanya, you know what? If I
have one conversation that I can say is the epitome of what I wanted out of
this whole discussion about equity and race, especially with Corwin's stance on
equity and race, this would be it.
[00:02:55.87] TANYA GHANS: Yeah. I mean, you said that beautifully. I'm not
sure that there's much I can add to it except that listeners a lot of times we
do hear the phrase, let's have an honest conversation about race. And I do
believe there are lots of ways to do that. And what I know for sure is that
what you're going to hear now is one of them. So I'm very excited for you all
to hear what Dr. Fields and Dr. Diggs have to say at this really important
moment, I think, for our country. So--
[00:03:25.69] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, and I want to say listen and listen really
with an open heart when you're listening.
[00:03:32.05] TANYA GHANS: Agreed. All right, Peter, I'll see you on the
other end.
[00:03:34.78] [MUSIC PLAYING]
[00:03:39.03] PETER DEWITT: Dr. Diggs and Dr. Howard Fields, welcome to the
Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast. How are you both doing?
[00:03:45.59] DARRYL DIGGS: We're doing fantastic. Thank you for having us.
[00:03:48.82] HOWARD FIELDS: Yes, Peter. Thank you for having us. It's a
tremendous honor to be here in this space to have conversation with you.
[00:03:55.12] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, no, I'm just excited about everything that
I hope we can get to within this podcast, but we also know that we can just do
another episode if that doesn't work. So let's just start it off. Currently,
one of the things that is happening around the nation is this whole idea of
teacher shortage.
[00:04:13.89] And something that you both have focused on for quite a long
time is finding and retaining leaders of color. So how do you-- what brought
you to focusing on that together in the first place? And what does that look
like? Like what are some of the strategies that you're engaging in that are
going to help find and retain leaders of color? So Daryl, why don't we start
with you?
[00:04:41.58] DARRYL DIGGS: I appreciate that. And again, thank you for this
opportunity and platform. So Howard and I we were able to land and find one
another through a leadership experience. And again, off into the woods through
our journey. And through that experience of learning these different leadership
initiatives, it's very rare that there will be two Black male educators that do
not know one another.
[00:05:05.74] And so within that, we were able to develop these bonds where
we were very passionate about trying to combat and then also stamp out
inequities that we saw in our own educational spaces. So for example, I worked
in a space, this was several years ago to where I started to question whether
the elementary students would have the opportunity to have an experience from a
diverse background as far as their teacher, their educator, maybe their leader
in the education space before they graduated from a K-12 experience?
[00:05:38.52] And in that opportunity be trying to analyze the metrics of
that, the result was 0. Like there was an opportunity for kids to just not have
the experience that mimicked either their community or the world that they
would be growing up in. Myself, I have two young boys, and so when I think
about the world for them, I'm working on that for them right now.
[00:06:01.39] So if I'm very passionate, which I am, about this work,
creating diverse experiences, trying to find and retain but then also champion
the field of education, I must do that for not only my children but also for
those that will come behind me.
[00:06:17.79] HOWARD FIELDS: Yeah, I second a lot of what brother Diggs just
alluded to. I think both of us are avid sports fans, and so we hear a thing or
two about the recent trend of All Stars or great players wanting to go and play
with other folks. And we have frequently heard in education that A players
don't necessarily want to play for C coaches, and so on and so forth.
[00:06:43.65] While we certainly don't shy away from a skill set that we
have, which is to build community and to move communities forward for the betterment
of our students and our staff, we want to be in spaces where we are supported
and also in spaces where we know the mission and we're moving forward. I think
generally speaking in a lot of our conversations with educators of color as
well as leaders of color, it's the same narrative.
[00:07:09.33] Many of us believe that we have a skill set to build
relationships. The data and the research is there to support how having
educators of color, in this case, Black educators, what it does to the school
in terms of our students and their ability to learn and retain information, but
also to go on and do some magnificent things. And so what we have found is
getting educators of color into the field of education is one thing, but how do
you retain them?
[00:07:36.55] And what we found is that retention starts with the
conversation and the experiences that people are there. All of our educators
are essentially publicists not just of the organization that we work for, but
for the field. And so similar to anybody who's done some PR or work around
customer service, when you have really good experiences, you are less likely to
communicate those amazing experiences.
[00:08:00.39] But I'll tell you what, if you have a terrible experience, we
are almost with pinpoint accuracy 90% to 100% going to communicate to others
how terrible this experience is. And I think unfortunately for some educators
of color again, for Black educators specifically based off of our conversations
with our various groups, there have been a number of challenges in the field
that has contributed to this educator shortage in the workforce.
[00:08:27.63] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, and thank you for that. I also moderate a
web show for education we call The Seat at the Table where we're often talking
about race and equity. And I remember having Dr. Barron Davison, who's a
superintendent in South Carolina, and we talked about retaining educators of
color.
[00:08:48.75] How has the recent, and I would say recent because of the fact
that it's much more vocal, and we see it much more in our face than ever
before, you've got states that are now banning conversations about equity and
race. How has that impacted the fact that-- trying to get educators of color
and leaders of color into schools? How has that impacted the whole idea of
retention? And even just recruiting people to come into to a system that
seemingly wants to discriminate against them?
[00:09:27.27] HOWARD FIELDS: I think I'll start off. As a past principal in
a school where regardless of the data point, we had evidence to support that
not only students were learning, but there was evidence to support that they
were learning at a high level.
[00:09:42.63] And one of the things that I found is that we have to teach
educators or treat educators like the professionals that they are Steve Jobs
said it the best, "We don't hire great people and-- smart people rather
and tell them what to do. We hire smart people and let them tell us what to
do."
[00:09:58.09] And so as a principal at the time, what we did was we were
very clear on the mission. We were very clear on the destination, and we were
able to have various conversations throughout. But they received autonomy to
really do this great work called teaching and learning, right? We like to say
that education is a science, but it's also an art. And when you see that
science and art working together, it is a magnificent sight.
[00:10:25.98] And so you mean to tell me, I want to recruit people into my
space, tell them to be who they are, be authentic, bring all of their schema
and things that they've learned and backgrounds as we are moving forward. But
we then throw a curveball and say, as it relates to how potentially your
ancestors navigated to this country, or as it relates to some of the
experiences you've had that we know on the basis of race, we don't want to have
those conversations.
[00:10:57.61] I think that's having impact on what we're deeming as the
educator shortage. Because again, we have a pleasure of sitting here with you
Peter, and we get a chance to speak freely about our experiences. Could you
imagine in the preamble we said, OK, you all can speak, but you can't talk
about your experiences in education, you can't talk about your experiences as
Black men, and you can't talk about anything that's not shedding great light on
education. Now let's have a conversation.
[00:11:28.20] Peter, I would be silent because all of my experiences are steeped
in one of those experiences, me being a Black male, being an educator, and/or
me having a vocal point and a perspective for some of the things that are going
on. And so I think it's not only a threat against educators, but it's also a
threat on our democracy. And I'm interested in hearing what brother Diggs would
add to that.
[00:11:52.26] DARRYL DIGGS: Yeah. To add to that point, what we see right
now across education, what we're experiencing in this moment across education
is what's created by design. So what we see right now and also our experiencing
with shortages, bans across the country, and also major microaggressions and
bias that are layered all over the place, we are seeing that now because the
system was built to be this at this present moment.
[00:12:27.37] So again to piggyback off of Dr. Fields and his thoughts,
while education is a science and an art, there's a deep sense of, hey, am I
able to come into a space and bestow upon young people the fruit of education?
But I can't lean in with my limited experience. I can't be authentic, right?
[00:12:50.04] So if you can't do those two things, then what is a
curriculum? A curriculum is just a pile of words that you can't convey the
passion of its importance. And if we can't convey the passion of its
importance, articulate the vision, and then also the purpose of it all, then
what are we really teaching?
[00:13:09.00] PETER DEWITT: So about a month and a half ago, I was actually
running a workshop in San Antonio, Texas for a regional network. There are 300
people in the room, and I use Mentimeter which is an online engagement tool
which is also anonymous, and that's important part to the story.
[00:13:25.65] But we were doing a realm of concern, a realm of influence
activity where you were talking about your concerns, and then you would move it
down to so what do you have influence over? And I'll tell you it was a powerful
day because in the room we had about 35 people from Uvalde. In fact, Rob
Elementary School was there, the principal was there.
[00:13:43.08] And they were talking about student safety, parent
communication. When you see that, it's obviously very powerful to see them
engaging in that. But then I asked could you go up to, now, I want you to get
on Mentimeter and talk about your realm of concern, what are the things you're
concerned about?
[00:14:00.01] And because it's anonymous, it was easier for people to say
this, but there were numerous people that said we live in a state where we're
supposed to talk about student engagement, but we can't even talk about equity
and race. So how fair of a job are we really going to be able to do? And that's
just very-- I don't know what the words are for it to be honest with you.
[00:14:23.56] Not only is it racist and discriminatory, it's also very
frustrating to be in this position in 2022 and not to be able to have open
conversations. Because quite honestly, we're the seat at the table because we
talk about race and equity so much. I have learned a great deal over the past 2
and 1/2 years that I have been moderating the show, and I'm a guy that focuses
on inclusion and everything else.
[00:14:45.95] One of the things that-- one of the blogs you wrote there--
you both have really great websites, by the way, that people need to be able to
go to. So Howard Field you have a website with videos, and you have blogs that
you've written, and I'm going to get to one of those in just a minute.
[00:15:00.61] And Darrell Diggs, you also have a website with the same
thing. You have blogs. And one of your blogs that I read recently was called
"The Fire Within" and it was about leadership. I think this is a
really important time-- and I'm getting older. So I'm 52 years old. I feel like
I've been talking about an important time for quite a long time.
[00:15:20.78] But this is a really important time for people to actually
stand up and be leaders. And sometimes leadership means standing up against the
grain and saying things against what other people might want. What would you
give as advice and insight to people when it comes to the whole idea of
"The Fire Within" and standing up to be a leader during these times?
What advice do you have for leaders in a position very much like you that are
not saying anything, or they want to say something but they're not sure what to
say?
[00:15:55.66] DARRYL DIGGS: Well, thank you for that. And so just to go back
for just a moment, I wrote that particular blog "Fire Within" because
I was in a transition period. I was moving from the principal-ship into another
role. And what I wanted to just again, make clear and put my thoughts and
spirit in the space is that I wanted to communicate to leaders and also to
myself that it's OK to be you, number one. And it's OK for all of us, leaders,
teachers wherever you are in the world and also in the space, to understand
that you can do hard things.
[00:16:33.68] I believe it's safe to say that all of us were experiencing a
moment almost all at the same time where we all had to make a decision to
either do something incredibly hard or just watch it unfold in front of us,
which is the pandemic, COVID-19, virtual learning, what have you.
[00:16:51.17] Now, with that said, what I would impart onto leaders across
the space is this, at some point, you have to get off the dance floor and jump
on stage to really see what's going on around you. So for example, you really
won't know what's happening in your community if you're just sitting in your
office, or sitting in the lunch line.
[00:17:13.07] You really have to take a step back see what everybody's needs
may be. And then after you're able to really get a good understanding of what's
happening in the environment, then you're like, OK, now what decisions do we
need to make that might be uncomfortable but also necessary for all of us to reach
our goals, mission, and vision?
[00:17:31.19] I often talk about, which I've mentioned in the blog, about
the horizon. As we look out over to the horizon, we know that the light is
there. We know that the fruit or the promised land happens to be there. But
between here and there, there's going to be some hills, some valleys. There
might be some snakes here and there.
[00:17:51.69] But understand that to get from here to there, to the horizon,
we must be authentic. Don't be afraid to use your voice. And it's OK to ask for
forgiveness. And also expect it to not be given back to you in return. Very
often human nature we hold on to, well, they did this to me, and they were so
negative. But at the end of the day, if you're doing the right thing for kids,
if you're always having your eye on the horizon or the promised land, then you
can't go wrong.
[00:18:27.65] And so that's what the article speaks about. It also speaks
about, hey, you know what? The outcome isn't what I expected, all of us didn't
expect but we also need to put the next foot forward and also the one right
after that.
[00:18:44.83] PETER DEWITT: I think that's excellent advice. So many of us
jump into leadership and we don't have a lot of experience, right? We may have
done internships and those kind of things. I mean, I went from teaching a
high-poverty city school to being a principal in a very rural school, but I had
no experience. And that whole idea like being willing to make mistakes and
those kind of things, I think you're just really important examples for
everybody to hear.
[00:19:10.45] I often go back on some advice I got from some retired
teachers. When my principal of-- had been in the district for about 50 years
said to me, Peter, I think you should skip the master's in Ed psych and go back
and get your master's in administration. I said, I am not-- I'm never going to
be a principal. And the two retired teachers I talked to actually said, but
what if you could be the principal you want to be not the one you think you
have to be?
[00:19:35.14] And I think that's coincides with what you're saying as well.
Howard, you were you wrote a blog too that I wanted to-- I mean, you both have
written many blogs, but you wrote one about everything to do with race. And it
was after the massacre in Buffalo. Why is it that people don't seem to see the
connection between what happened there and the fact that banning conversations
about equity and race is not going to get us any further ahead?
[00:20:05.70] HOWARD FIELDS: Well, Peter, that's a conversation we can
certainly take. It could be a sequence in itself of multiple podcasts, but I'll
be very concise in this regard. Race-- we have socialized race to be almost a
taboo subject. We want to say things outside of race, although, from a school
setting, when you're talking about students who are not doing well, you do go
to race.
[00:20:33.21] And so as an educator, as a Black male, I'm just quite frankly
sick and tired of being at the table, having conversations, and when we talk
about those students who are not doing well, when we're talking about those
students who have this notion of learning loss, when we talk about this notion
of educators who are leaving the field, et cetera, et cetera, they look like
me. They have lineage that goes back to Africa like myself.
[00:21:02.07] And as you can imagine, that on a constant basis, that's going
to have an impact on your thoughts, your beliefs and what you're doing. We have
to have certain conversations, and we have to acknowledge it. And when we
remove that as part of the conversation, it does feel empty, and it does send a
loud clear message that you cannot show up as your organic or authentic self.
[00:21:28.74] I think these are some of the dynamics that we are looking at.
I certainly believe based on my experience is for the overwhelming majority,
every organization is perfectly set up to receive the results that they
receive. And when you talk about the day-to-day interactions, when you're
talking about what gets measured gets done, it's a situation where a lot of
times it's not continuous growth happening.
[00:21:56.79] It's almost a situation where those students who assimilate
and acquiesce into the way that we do things, are those who get an opportunity
and do well. And those that continue to want to liberate themselves in other
regards, they are the ones who struggle quite frankly.
[00:22:15.63] And when I say struggle, that's an asterisk beside it because
when we're talking about the great things the students do, and how they do well
in school, it's been my experience is that all students have more gifts than
challenges. It's just those students who sound and look like me and Darrell,
for instance, our challenges are the ones that are pushed out there much more
than our gifts.
[00:22:38.44] And I think those are conversations that we absolutely must
have in order to move forward. A lot of-- there was something on social media
the other day or not long ago that was saying, when did you have your first
teacher of color or a Black educator?
[00:22:53.52] I'll take it another step further. When were you consciously
made aware of the way that our country was created and the role that people of
color, need that be Black, need that be Native Americans, the role that they
played and the creation of this country?
[00:23:10.44] I think those are pieces that unfortunately they continue to
get swept under the rug. Another saying is, if you're not at the table, you're
on the menu. And too often when we look at legislators branches, and when we
look at the ones that are making decisions, rather that be politicians, board
members, they're the same in a lot of regards.
[00:23:31.77] Most of the time, the overwhelming majority either don't look
like myself and Darrell, or they're put in a position where some of their
successes are based on acquiescing or assimilating in these same structures.
And I think that's going to continue to have an impact on our students, and
it's going to continue to say, although we want student voice and choice,
although we want students to come as they are, there is a line in the sand.
[00:23:58.74] And frequently enough, if you're from a particular community,
if you don't have x amount of wealth, if you have x amount of disabilities, or
if you have a particular sexual orientation, that line is very clear, and
you're essentially on the outside looking in. That's the harsh reality of the
matter.
[00:24:16.47] PETER DEWITT: It is definitely the harsh reality. And one of
the things that you said reminded me of what Baron Davis actually said to me
when on a seat at the table where he was talking about it's not just retaining
leaders of color and retaining educators of color. It's also about retaining
counselors and school psychologists of color because when you think about that
deficit mindset, the reality is you have a lot of school psychologists or
counselors that might be white.
[00:24:42.10] And if they don't understand young Black males or young Black
females, they do have a deficit mindset. And so looking at school counselors
and school psychologists is also really important. Also what you said and I
think what people need to really understand is there's a great book called Know
Your Price by Andre Perry.
[00:25:02.41] And Andre was somebody who was actually a guest on A Seat at
the Table once too. And in his book he talks about the fact that billions of
dollars less are spent on schools that have a high majority of Black and Brown
students. And I think people don't seem to want to talk about that, and I think
it's something that we need to be able to talk about.
[00:25:23.83] And that funding discussion has been around for a long time.
Jonathan Kozol talked about that in the 1990s in Savage Inequalities as well.
So I'd like to talk a little bit about a couple of the organizations that you
both are a part of. So you're both a part of Black Male Educators of Saint Louis.
Talk to us a little bit about where that came from and the great work that
you're doing there as well.
[00:25:48.08] DARRYL DIGGS: Thank you for that. So BMESTL, Black Male
Educators from Saint Louis. It was started from a conversation that Dr. Fields
and I had off on the side just wanting to create community and just bringing
Black male educators together. And so when we put out the little flyer, we were
going to meet at a local restaurant here in Saint Louis. And immediately on the
first one, again, it was like a happy hour situation, about 30 Black male
educators showed up.
[00:26:15.67] And the greatest compliment from that first event was one of
our older gentlemen, I think he was recently retired, he said, gentlemen, this
is what I needed. There needs to be more of this. We need to make sure that
we're also building community to where there's not many of us leaving because
there's this retention piece too. So if we're able to connect with one another,
build community, there may be a chance where there's going to be less Black
males leave the field of education.
[00:26:48.35] And so one social group, then it turned into two, turned into
three, and then we just had a series of them once a month. And they started
growing in kind. And so then from there, Dr. Fields and I, we had another idea
about like, hey, what if we were to have a convening of just thoughts and ideas
from leaders from all across the Saint Louis area?
[00:27:08.44] And so that birthed the State of Black Educator Symposium. And
we feel phenomenally blessed to be going into our fourth iteration of SBE.
It'll be called SBE23, State of Black educator Symposium for 2023. And so
what's awesome about that is, again, the greatest compliment for that was, hey,
this feels like a family reunion.
[00:27:30.64] And it's just us bringing people together to have conversation
that's impactful about education, how to best support one another, how to
support Black educators, educators of color, kids of color, like what does that
look like? But also let's move away from theory and get to practice. Let's also
go from practice and get to real action. And that's something that Howard and I
pride ourselves on. We're authentic. We try to be responsive to the needs of
our side of the state and just create events that mean something.
[00:28:07.11] PETER DEWITT: So what are those strategies? Let's get there.
Let's talk about the practical strategies. What are some practical ways to
start recruiting and retaining educators and leaders of color? What do you focus
on?
[00:28:21.00] HOWARD FIELDS: Well, I think for starters recruitment starts
with retention. Have conversations with your current staff of color as it
relates to real conversations. And when I say real conversations, I am
essentially referring to what are some of those things that we do well? What
are some of those challenges?
[00:28:40.74] I think this is more so than an opportunity for you to engage
with your staff in color, this is also an assessment of your culture. Because
if you're asking these difficult questions and if people are being quiet and
not speaking up, I think that's a testament to the culture that you've
established, and people are not safe.
[00:28:58.95] In order to teach school, we have to keep school. And too
often what that means from an educator standpoint is we have to have a
situation where you're not going to be reprimanded for providing organic, real
conversations. I think that's going to be important. I think more recently you
have a lot of organization hiring staff of color, but they're hiring them at
the introductory level.
[00:29:20.32] And I think, while that's OK if myself Peter and Darrell if
we're saying we want to do great things and we want to make our organization
better for our staff members who identify as women. Then if we don't have any
staff members who are in the boardroom making conversations and who also feel
comfortable enough to provide their organic real conversations, then what are
we really doing? I think we first have to establish our culture.
[00:29:46.98] And we also have to swallow some difficult pills in a sense
that sometimes we're not recruiting people into a healthy organization. We are
trying to recruit people into the most toxic, difficult space that you're going
to be in. I tell people all the time, what's the benefit in making $20,000
$30,000 $40,000 more when we're just going to have to turn around and spend it
on therapy because in order for you to even maintain and stay in a space where
you're functional, you're going to be quite lonely in some of these areas.
[00:30:18.40] And so one of the things that Dale and I have been able to do
is we created the flip job fair dynamic. And instead of you going in, having
conversations with all of these different organizations who are trying to recruit
you, you get a chance to be at a table and they come to you.
[00:30:35.55] And one of the questions we try to empower people to have is
those same individuals who share the same social identity as myself, what
criticisms or critical pieces of feedback will they say about your
organization? From what we've been told, that's one of the most empowering
questions you can ask because it forces you as the organization to see one, if
you have an inclusive environment where people have provided you with that feedback?
[00:30:57.06] And two, are you comfortable enough and confident enough where
you can articulate the areas that are still areas of improvement for you? I'm
saying all of that to say, people have options and people know that they want
to feel fulfilled in this work, and they want to do some great things for kids.
[00:31:13.86] I will still say with the exception of me working at the
airport for Northwest Airlines, who's no longer in business, I would say
education is the best field I've ever worked in, and there's nothing like going
into a classroom making a difference, engaging with individuals. There is
nothing like it. At the same time, is it worth it to make a difference for
others at the expense of your future as an individual? That's a harsh question
that you have to ask yourself.
[00:31:42.78] PETER DEWITT: I like all of those. Darryl, I'm going to end
with you as we start to wrap it up. What are some and maybe it's an unfair way
of asking. But if I said, what are two things that you would suggest to
listeners as far as retention and also recruiting, what would it be? What do
you find as you're like-- because you just went out of the principal role, now
you're in the director of equity. And so what are those two things that you
would say, we do this, and it works really well?
[00:32:15.86] DARRYL DIGGS: Far too often we're sitting in spaces to where
we have gotten comfortable with this is how we've always done things, or we've
never done it that way. It's OK to start doing it like something else. It's OK
to book convention and be innovative.
[00:32:34.46] So just those two pieces. One, get off the dance floor, see
what's going on, ask the deep questions. And then number two, let's not sit in
our bathwater. Let's change. Let's grow. Let's be great.
[00:32:47.54] PETER DEWITT: You know it remains-- a trend that I see quite
often these days is that of empathy interviews asking students, what are the
barriers to learning? What are the things that work for you in the classroom?
And it seems like we need to be able to do the same thing with the adults. What
are the barriers to you doing your job? What are the successes? What are the
things that we do well.
[00:33:07.73] And much to what you were saying Howard earlier, not only do
we have to be willing to ask the questions, but we have to be willing to listen
to the answers as well. And sometimes the answers we get are going to be
painful. We're not going to enjoy them. But that's what the hard truth will do,
and that's what gets us to change. So as we end, Dr. Darrell Diggs, where can
people find you?
[00:33:30.65] DARRYL DIGGS: So I could be found on my website,
achievementforall.com. I'm also very active on Twitter, achievement4all, the
number 4. And we also run a small startup called EduOpenings. You can find that
on App Store, Google Play, as well as through Android.
[00:33:49.58] PETER DEWITT: And before I get to Dr. Howard Fields, Daryl,
just talk to me a little bit about the EduOpenings, what is that?
[00:33:56.09] DARRYL DIGGS: So EduOpenings is as a start up between Dr.
Fields and I. We were able to create a space in the midst of COVID to really
help individuals find employment, find professional development, and then also
for hiring parties to become recruiters.
[00:34:11.27] And so it's on a website. It's also on a mobile device because
what we have found is that there are so many people with devices now, cell
phones, to where why not take out your cell phone, look at positions that are
available, apply, give your first impression, connect with one another.
[00:34:27.30] And this gives us a leg up on trying to fill those vacancies
all across our space, whether it's support staff, teachers, admin, what have
you. So we launched that in November last year. We're coming up on a year. And
what's amazing about it is that it is extremely diverse. And once you pull the
metrics, we have demographics all over. Individuals trying to find and also
land positions, so it is wildly successful.
[00:34:53.54] PETER DEWITT: That's awesome. And Dr. Howard FIELDS, where can
people find you?
[00:34:59.87] HOWARD FIELDS: I can be found on social media platforms,
Twitter, Instagram, on LinkedIn. I also have to Daryl's point, a website as
well, drhowardfields.com. And so just reach out. I would love to continue to
connect with people across the country. If you are certainly interested in
continuing to learn and grow, we encourage you to check out the third-- I'm
sorry-- the fourth iteration of the State of Black Educator Symposium. More
information can be on SBE23.com. Again, SBE23.com.
[00:35:35.45] And as Daryl already pointed out, nationwide, we do have
EduOpenings which is a mobile app that you can download or go to the website
EduOpenings.com. And so Peter we really appreciate you leveraging your platform
to have these real discussions to highlight individuals who are doing some
work. I had a chance to listen to some of the other podcasts and just fantastic
individuals who are doing the work. And so kudos to you and the work that you
do. We truly appreciate it.
[00:36:01.88] PETER DEWITT: Well it's a partnership with Tanya Ghans for
sure. But Daryl, Howard, thank you so much for being on Leaders Coaching
Leaders podcast. But more importantly, thank you for the work that you're doing
because it's very, very important now more than ever.
[00:36:16.00] DARRYL DIGGS: Thank you.
[00:36:16.53] HOWARD FIELDS: Thank you.
[00:36:21.01] PETER DEWITT: I have to admit a couple of years ago, I would
have told you that I was really good at talking about race. I wrote about
inclusion. Even at the intro I talked about the book on safeguarding LGBT
students, which was my doctoral dissertation as well.
[00:36:40.13] But in one of my first conversations on A Seat at the Table
for [? Ed Week, ?] I talked with Zoraida Hammond, also an important author. And
within the first 2 and 1/2 minutes, I realized I wasn't good at talking about
equity. And I will tell you that that conversation just sent me in a new
trajectory as far as like I want to really-- I want to have these
conversations. And I want to provide a space to have the conversations, but I
also want to do something after the conversations.
[00:37:13.53] And I think today was a perfect example of just engaging in a
really open and honest conversation. And Darrell and Howard certainly just
brought so much to the table from both their experiences growing up and the
work they're doing and the leadership they're inspiring, but also even with
EduOpenings and talking about the Black Male Educators of St Louis. I think
they said they were coming up on their fourth conference around that.
[00:37:43.25] I mean, they were just-- to me it was an amazing conversation.
And I will say I'm better at these conversations because of that moment I had
with Zoraida Hammond 2 and 1/2 years ago. And I think that that's what I was
trying to get to when I was talking to Howard.
[00:37:59.87] About not only should you engage in empathy interviews where
you're talking about what's working, what's not working, not only does it need
to take some risk to be able to engage in those conversations, you have to be
willing to hear what you're about to hear when you ask those questions too and
do something about it. And I think that these two guys definitely just brought
a lot of that today.
[00:38:22.64] TANYA GHANS: Yeah. I mean, thank you for even just your
vulnerability upfront and at the top of this about saying you thought you knew
how to talk about race and then you spoke to someone, and you realized there
was so much more to learn. I think discussions like these allow people to be
vulnerable.
[00:38:39.50] This is part of how you make a safe space that people can't
say the things you've said, or say some of the things that they shared, you
don't get to root causes. And that's such an issue. I think for again for our
country today, this polarization, this people just not being able to speak
honestly and authentically about where they stand right now.
[00:39:02.51] And that's in different positions in other people. And so yes,
I think this conversation was fantastic in that. It was inspirational. And then
it's also like these two are almost giants in the field. They also have a
mobile app--
[00:39:18.58] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, I know.
[00:39:19.44] TANYA GHANS: --to make sure that they can make it practical
for people to get access to folks of color who are looking for jobs. And
they've created some really hands-on like, OK, this is a real thing, but we're
also going to move your-- they get the-- again, people say the adaptive and the
technical, but that adaptive piece is really, really hard, and they were so
good at talking about that because that's probably 80% of so many problems,
right? It's the bliss just where your mind is at.
[00:39:52.66] PETER DEWITT: I just kept thinking, I don't even-- I don't
know how to make a mobile app. Like how do you-- that just seems so that seems
so hard. But now, I mean, that's what I'm saying is that I feel like these are
the conversations that are overall just take you on so many different levels,
and they just bring about so many emotions.
[00:40:11.99] And at one point we're talking about a very deep, deep
discussion about equity and race, which we know is being banned in places
around the country or around the world. And on the other side, I'm like, man,
you created an app.
[00:40:27.13] TANYA GHANS: Like you have a whole infrastructure and
ecosystem going on to make this stuff operational, which is fantastic. So what
I love about these conversations, even though it can be frustrating to only
have the 25 minutes, I do think hopefully we wet people's whistle enough and we
really expose them to folks that they can go deeper with on their own time.
[00:40:48.59] And I think all of our guests are those people, and these two
are no exception to that. Go dig into Howard Field's and Dr. Diggs' work. And I
do hope to see Corwin underneath their names.
[00:41:02.70] [LAUGHTER]
[00:41:03.64] PETER DEWITT: Oh, yeah.
[00:41:04.48] TANYA GHANS: Not too near future but we'll see.
[00:41:06.61] PETER DEWITT: People didn't hear me well. After the interview
ended, they didn't hear me try to like--
[00:41:11.98] [LAUGHTER]
[00:41:12.88] I [INAUDIBLE]
[00:41:14.20] TANYA GHANS: You're always awesome at that. Well, Peter,
another fantastic conversation. I feel inspired to go rejuvenated to go finish
off the rest of my day.
[00:41:24.73] PETER DEWITT: Thank you very much, Tanya. You're a great
partner in this, and that was just-- yeah that was a fantastic conversation. So
thank you to everybody that listened and take action after you leave here
today.
[00:41:37.93] TANYA GHANS: Sounds good. See you next time Peter.
[00:41:39.94] PETER DEWITT: All right. See you, Tanya.
[00:41:41.20] TANYA GHANS: Bye-bye.
[00:41:41.98] [AUDIO LOGO]
