Happy Kids Don't Punch You in the Face

Series 6 Leaders Coaching Leaders

[00:00:00.34] SPEAKER: Welcome to Corwin's Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast with host Peter Dewitt. This podcast is from education leaders for education leaders. Every week, Peter and our guests get together to share ideas, put research into practice, and ensure every student is learning not by chance, but by design.

[00:00:19.51] TANYA GHANS: Peter, hello. Nice to see you.

[00:00:22.40] PETER DEWITT: Hey, Tanya. How are you?

[00:00:23.96] TANYA GHANS: I'm good. Always happy when I see you back for another installment of our Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast. And as always, we have on a really great guest with a very relevant and necessary topic. So I will go right--

[00:00:41.58] [LAUGHTER]

[00:00:43.30] we'll edit this out. I'm going to go right into just presenting him, introducing him. We have Ben Springer on today. An author of a book with a title that is very hard to forget, called Happy Kids Don't Punch You in the Face, which I think we all believe is true.

[00:00:59.14] A little bit about Ben is that he received his master's in educational psychology. He has been a teacher, an autism specialist, a school psychologist, the director of special education. So lots of background to be writing a book on this topic.

[00:01:14.95] Currently he works as the Director of the Family Education Center in Wasatch County School District where he manages Totem PD, which is a professional development learning company all around-- I think dealing with behavioral issues and proactive and in the moment kind of way.

[00:01:33.92] So I think this is just a really important topic because it's one of those things that are very alive and making a lot of noise on-- just about every platform you go to is student behavior problem. And one thing I thought was interesting for listeners, he's going to talk a lot about-- not a lot, but he will mention from little house to the prairie to now. That's kind of a timeline that he uses.

[00:01:57.39] And how the question that-- something that keeps coming up or even is stated is that things are worse than they've ever been before. But his view is that maybe not so much. It's more about we just are having a very new discussion about how we talk about children and children's rights and children's needs, and that our system just really hasn't caught up to it yet.

[00:02:19.65] So what we're seeing is, at least in part, a lot of children who in the past would have just been let go of, expelled, put away, are now-- we understand it's our responsibility to work with those students more and more. But the tools for how to do it are not always the easiest.

[00:02:37.38] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, I really-- I enjoyed the conversation. He talked about positive psychology. He's like the epitome of positive psychology when I'm talking to him because for those listeners who will actually watch the YouTube video, which is well worth it, he's just smiling. He just seems very engaging that way.

[00:03:02.74] People are going to think that I come into these with a list of questions. And I hear that quite a bit. Like, you must do a lot of studying and you have a list of questions. I definitely study the guests, but I walk in with one question and then just let the rest flow.

[00:03:18.67] So when I ask a question, like, are there any two or three things people can do right now as they're working with students? That was not a question that Ben had access to beforehand. It's really just a conversation. And he did a fantastic job of talking about positive mantras. And people will hear me-- hear him discuss, asking questions, and those kind of things.

[00:03:45.00] So what I like is that this is a topic where you can kind of be really theoretical and you can just be kind of, like, what the research says, but he had a perfect balance between both what the research said and his influences, along with some very practical suggestions on what people can do today when they're listening to the podcast. So I really enjoyed this one.

[00:04:10.46] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, if there's ever an area in education that needs reality to meet practice quickly, it's when you're dealing with what any kind of school student behavior or discipline issue. So, yeah, I thought he was super practical. For listeners who are a fan of Martin Seligman, for fans of this show-- I've probably mentioned it before-- huge fan of his work. I think he's probably known as the father of positive psychology. That seems to undergird a lot of Ben's work.

[00:04:38.09] And so he applies those principles to how does that same stuff that works for us adults to live a thriving life, how can that also support students. But, again, not in this distant way from the real problems that educators are facing on the ground.

[00:04:54.62] So I won't reveal those four pillars. I believe he talks about four pillars being there, but when you listen you're going to hear them. And I don't think they're the kind that you hear every day. I think he really is getting at some new angles and new ways of thinking about this that also aren't brand new, shiny toy.

[00:05:12.32] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, yeah.

[00:05:13.13] TANYA GHANS: Right? So I think listeners will really enjoy that.

[00:05:15.87] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, so happy listening.

[00:05:17.79] TANYA GHANS: Happy listening. See you on the other side.

[00:05:23.12] SPEAKER: Did you know Corwin provides Visible Learning plus Workshops led by some of the biggest thought leaders in education? Discover strategies from John Hattie, Fisher and Frey, and more as they share evidence-based solutions for immediate impact in your classroom. Get started at corwin.com today.

[00:05:39.32] PETER DEWITT: Ben Springer, welcome to the Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast.

[00:05:43.32] BEN SPRINGER: Thank you for having me. It's exciting.

[00:05:45.98] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. You have one of the most interesting book titles. And I'm sure this is-- everybody has told you this so this is not new. But actually two, GPS, Good Parenting Strategies. The second one is Happy Kids Don't Punch You in the Face.

[00:06:04.30] BEN SPRINGER: That's right. That's right.

[00:06:05.96] PETER DEWITT: And I feel like I see both of those books and I want to say-- this is going to be my main coaching question-- tell me more. So where did this come from with Happy Kids Don't Punch You in the Face?

[00:06:18.41] BEN SPRINGER: Yeah, it came from-- so my background is a school psychologist. And for a few years, I had this niche-- and I'm sure they're called different positions over the country-- but like a behavior specialist. So we'd go into special education programs or EBD programs. And I was doing that for years. And I had developed a training to de-escalate situations.

[00:06:44.13] And one of the modules in there applied-- it was the application of positive psychology-- in these behavior intervention plans. And I called that part of the training Happy Kids Don't Punch You in the Face. And then when I-- my encounter with Corwin and Jessica, they were like, that's the name. That's the name of your book. That's the name of the approaches. And that's the gist of it.

[00:07:04.92] So it's just kind of this approach to addressing kids who are struggling. And I'm like-- we're talking like the dangerous scary stuff that happens in schools that principals and teachers have to deal with. So it's an approach to help address the aggression that we see in schools.

[00:07:21.53] PETER DEWITT: So I have a-- I kind of have a load of questions because one of the things, when you said behavior specialist, it made me think of-- I remember I was in Port Huron, Michigan a few years ago, pre-COVID, working with coaches. And a few of them were behavior specialists.

[00:07:39.92] And it was kind of this thing where the first day of school and a teacher brought a kid out and looked at one of the behavior specialists and said, is he on your list? And the-- hey, kiddo, what's your name? And they said their name. And he was like, no, it's not. Well, he should be on your list.

[00:07:55.47] And I just remember talking a lot then about the fact that it seemed like the behavior specialists never got the opportunity to be proactive because their always in this reactive mode. Is that something that you see still happening or do you figure out a way to do a proactive approach?

[00:08:16.74] BEN SPRINGER: That's insightful. And I would say that's actually probably more common than not that we're kind of-- so many school systems, and we're trying to do better. Every school system is obviously trying to improve supports for challenging behaviors and stuff.

[00:08:33.60] But a lot of it is putting out fire modes. And it is very reactionary. And I think it's something that it takes a lot of focus and a lot of attention to build into these preventative models. And that's-- I guess if there's like three main parts of the book and the approach is, the first one that we talk about really is what are the roots of aggression in kids and then what are the preventative models that we can use to get in there.

[00:09:02.25] And coaching principals or specialists to really, really to invest in those preventative approaches, which is usually early childhood and parent outreach. Which is what I think we would-- that's the first kind of chunk of the book or the approach, is to start looking for those things. So it becomes less of a reactionary job and less like I got to put out all these fires and more of preventing these fires from happening as you know.

[00:09:33.49] PETER DEWITT: I wonder, though, with the roots of aggression, that's a really good way of looking at it. One of the conversations I've had in coaching when I'm coaching middle school and high school leaders specifically, there are a lot of them that are looking at maybe transferring from a zero tolerance policy to looking at justice policy.

[00:09:53.21] But one of the things they run into is the people that want a pound of flesh. That the wording that came out from one of the assistant principals that I was working with a few weeks ago in California, he said, he's kind of dealing with adults who want a pound of flesh. So how do you help them find the roots of aggression with the students that they might be seeing as an issue?

[00:10:20.88] BEN SPRINGER: That is a real, real struggle. And every administrator, every teacher that I work with it's like there's two competing interests. And this is something that we train and coach on, and we hope is available in the book. The big message is principals have to navigate competing interests all the time. And the first competing interest of the kid is aggressive is what's best for the student. We have to go through all those placement decisions.

[00:10:47.75] And what is gaining a lot of traction lately when I go out and visit with schools is, yes, we have to set up plans and support for the interests of the student, but we've also got to navigate these interests for the educators.

[00:11:00.83] And I know that seems like obvious but, building principals and program coordinators and those that are struggling with this, I think it's a little bit easier to go in towards, oh, we've got to support the students because there's all these placement and safeguards for them. But the traction that I've been getting a lot lately is the human rights of teachers are just as valuable as those of students.

[00:11:23.10] And so it's really meeting principals and these folks have to make those decisions. To get away from the pound of flesh mentality the idea is we have to create some psychological safety for the staff. And because I think they want something to change, they want punishments to happen, and rightfully so. Kids should get consequences for their misbehavior.

[00:11:46.02] But there are so many lenses that any building at any given time any teacher is looking through, and it's how do we coach and support teams to look through similar lenses, understand where this aggression is coming from, apply more dynamic approaches like restorative approaches, but not at the sake of ignoring what the teachers are going through.

[00:12:08.61] And I use to combat this pound of flesh mentality with like, OK, I mean, let's-- that doesn't-- like, evidence-based things, it doesn't work. Punishment doesn't work that way, or whatever. And it didn't really stick. And the longer you do it, the more you realize compassionately we have to reach out to the parents, the student, and the teachers, as well as the building leader.

[00:12:31.92] And it's just through that compassionate lens of I get where you're coming from, I get that you want this behavior to change. And let's help you and the student. And it's just navigating all those competing interests and being honest about it that I think helps the most.

[00:12:48.99] PETER DEWITT: Well, because you're the expert on all behavior specialists in the whole damn world, I've like an old time question. You know, you always hear people saying, oh, kids have changed. And they used to be-- is that true? Like, have we seen an increase in these behaviors among students?

[00:13:09.72] BEN SPRINGER: I think we've seen an increase, but I think it's not a change. And what I mean by this is since Little House on the Prairie to now, the school response to misbehavior or serious aggression hasn't evolved. It hasn't changed. It hasn't progressed at the rate that it should have.

[00:13:29.17] So in the '70s when there started to become more and more laws and protections for students with disabilities, so all these students with exceptionalities is typically who we're ending up with. Of course, there's going to be some other acts of aggression that aren't necessarily related to a disability or category, or something like that.

[00:13:48.28] But what I have found is, at least doing this for a long time, is the student needs haven't gone anywhere. It's just the demands of-- and their rights giving them services and access to school has become more of in the front of what we're supposed to do. And that I think that's correlated with the information age, right.

[00:14:11.22] If a kid threw a chair in a classroom anytime between little house and the play-- Little House on the Prairie to like 2000, it was a no brainer, suspend, expulsion. That was kind of the move. And then the information age comes, and if I'm a parent and I'm looking for-- back in the early 200os, pre-Google, it would have been like Ask Jeeves, like, what do I do with my student?

[00:14:33.27] I just type in student, it was probably some weird diagnosis like PDDNOS which was this pervasive developmental. And then 20 minutes later, if you had the patience, Ask Jeeves would return some chat boxes. And then you fast forward another five years in the advent of Google and more information, parents are getting the information that they should have been getting since the '70s. And it was like the schools, we just push pause on it.

[00:14:55.72] And so now we're playing catch up and everybody is like, where are all these kids coming from? Well, if you came up like we did it in the public education system, a lot of these kids were just expelled or kicked out of their programs. And I think that's what is happening now. I think we're being put to task about what we should be doing. And we've got it-- and we're like playing catch up.

[00:15:16.86] And that's the hardest part, I think, for any program. Whether you're a rural, semi-rural, or metropolitan school district, you're being asked to catch up now to what these students need and what they require. And school budgets aren't friendly to this, school training isn't friendly to this, and that's why I think we're seeing a lot more of it. And that's kind of my take on it.

[00:15:39.33] PETER DEWITT: So when I-- one of the pieces of research that has stood out to me for a long time is on student engagement by Odutola. Our kids feel alienated for two reasons. One, they don't have an emotional connection to their teacher or school.

[00:15:56.43] And the second one is that they don't have a voice in their own learning. I know that when there's a large spectrum with the students that you're talking about here and who you've talked about in the book, what are those things that we can do so the kids start to move toward that happier space so they don't punch us in the face?

[00:16:16.65] BEN SPRINGER: Yeah, yeah, I think that's what's been really, really great about-- and there's so much overlap about this research that you're citing on, engagement and what educators can do, and what the discipline of positive psychology is recommending.

[00:16:29.46] And so there's these two researchers out of the University of Connecticut, Tom Kelly and Melissa Bray. And they came up with this theoretical approach of consuming all this positive psychology research. And they came up-- I call them these four pillars of human happiness.

[00:16:43.00] But if we were to apply these four principles in every kid's life and every coaching model, every leadership model, the solutions to problems actually start cascading through. And these are like complex behavioral mental health challenges. So the first one, the pillar is-- and this definitely overlaps with what you're talking about with teacher engagement.

[00:17:06.80] So teaching kids how to access resources at home and in the community, that's this first part of this RIECH theory or this-- it's an acronym for RIECH. And when I go on trainings, not only do we share this with teachers about, hey, we need to help kids access resources in their community, that's the micro. And in the macro approaches we help teachers say what resources do we need to coach you to be able to access at home and the community. So it's a human approach.

[00:17:34.88] And the second one is intimacy, which is that that word can kind of trigger people on any kind of spectrum of what you're thinking about. But all it really means is, can we forge meaningful relationships? And so that's something that we should be teaching with. And that to me is exactly what we're asking educators. We're asking them to be engaging, we're asking them to build rapid rapport with kids, be authentic, and demonstrate to them how to be a healthy role model and a relationship there.

[00:18:04.99] And then competence and at least one employable skill, so if that's an area that we can help kids focus on. When we ask all educators who go out and train, hey, what are the creative attributes of your coworkers? They'll say like, oh, they're relatable, they are positive, they're good communicators. None of them say, I love their written fluency or their reading comprehension.

[00:18:28.20] The joke is, of course, those things are important. We're not trying to ignore how important literacy and numeracy skills are. But at the end of the day, human happiness is based on, can you be employed? Can you have a competency where you can get a paycheck, access those resources, and practice those relationship skills that we need? And then the final pillar there is health. So your diet, sleep, and exercise.

[00:18:50.34] And those things and plus a few others that we share that are in the book and the training, these applications of positive psychology, it nudges children and humans to this area like, wow, look at me, I can access resources. I can have a meaningful relationship. I'm pretty good at this thing. I don't have mastery skills at it but I'm pretty good at it. And, look, I'm off the M&M and Cheeto diet finally.

[00:19:15.51] And so those four things, when those are all engaged with the student, we see zero aggression. They have no reason to be aggressive. But when they don't know how to access resources, when they feel socially isolated, they don't have any meaningful skills developing, and they're not sleeping or not eating right, we see aggression.

[00:19:36.30] And so those four things, as cute as it can sound, it's this RIECH theory-- it's a RIECH theory and all these kind of stuff. It's not like a Hallmark card, it's like this culmination of all this research from Martin Seligman and Mihahy Csikszentmihalyi and others just completely being adapted to what we can do in public schools.

[00:19:55.92] And that's where I start with the problem solving process, with kids that are being aggressive is I think in special education or in education, we have to do these procedural things, which is true and we should. But functional behavior assessments are pretty much the starting point for a lot of these problem solving models. And those don't include anything with positive psychology.

[00:20:17.25] And that's where this approach that I'm sharing with folks and with teams is coming from, is like it's both. They're not mutually exclusive. Let's do the good procedures. Let's do the applied-- the principles of applied behavior analysis. But let's include this RIECH theory stuff and concepts like flow into kids' lives. And it's really successful.

[00:20:36.30] PETER DEWITT: Those four are really interesting. Out of the four, is there one that you see more than others?

[00:20:43.92] BEN SPRINGER: I definitely coach teams we shouldn't even start to problem solve without that H part. If the diet, sleep-- or, like, really, sleep and diet is what we're going for. But there's a lot of kids that don't-- and adults, all of us, we could all improve. Nobody's going to ask anybody to run marathons or anything, but just that getting out and getting a sweat going.

[00:21:04.89] But I coach teams we shouldn't even bother with a big behavior plan until we've ruled out diet and sleep. And if we can help address those things, we can see just-- I mean, that's almost like the first step because you can see a world of difference if we can adjust those.

[00:21:20.76] And then I would say learning to access resources and functionally teaching kids to communicate how to-- to teach them how to access these resources, I would say those are the most common starting points. So the H and the R for this. And then-- yeah.

[00:21:35.13] PETER DEWITT: I guess that's why I was asking to you because last night I started watching the Netflix documentary on blue zones. And I meditate every morning. And I'm a long distance runner. And, you know, so--

[00:21:48.23] BEN SPRINGER: It's awesome.

[00:21:48.74] PETER DEWITT: --it's not just about the 10 minutes you meditate or the hour and a half your run or bike or whatever. It's about all the other things. And as a teacher and a principal, one of the things that I thought was horrible was school diet.

[00:22:02.69] And I'm not saying that it's not the school's fault, I'm just saying that as a teacher, I remember working and then we had 90% free and reduced lunch. And when I went into the breakfast to see what kids were able to access, it was chocolate donuts, chocolate milk. Not a great way to start out the day. But also with lunches, when you go in and you see pizza one day, mozzarella cheese sticks the next day, tacos the day after that.

[00:22:29.15] I wrote a blog years ago for Education Week where I got myself in serious trouble because a friend of mine had taken 10 pictures of her son's lunches every day. And I wasn't going to throw her under the bus, I just said write those pictures and Yahoo picked it up. I had people screaming at me, what the hell? The health is absolutely right. Like, if you're not sleeping-- I mean, even as adults, if I don't get a good night's sleep, I can be cranky the next day.

[00:22:57.22] BEN SPRINGER: Yeah, you're dead on. And I think that's-- I think there's some really-- it's so cool that you bring up that documentary Netflix and the blue zones. It's pretty central to how we manage mental health and our own health and agitation and behavior. And it's just-- it's like kind of going back to that whole problem with from Little House on the Prairie to now, you just-- we just need to catch up a little bit more. And I think the diet is a real situation.

[00:23:31.74] And when we visit with teams, we ask them apply this with students, but the macro apply it with ourselves too because it takes stamina, it takes a whole bunch of energy to work with kids just in general. And if we're not taking care of it, we can respond in not successful ways too.

[00:23:50.82] PETER DEWITT: So I know that people listening are going to be a little upset with me because I mentioned the food part and they bring that in from home, or I can't control my school cafeteria, because I'll hear that.

[00:24:05.57] So what is something that, as a takeaway when people are listening to this and they hear the title Happy Kids Don't Puch in the Face, and what is one-- is there-- maybe this is an unfair question, but I'm going to ask it anyway.

[00:24:20.42] BEN SPRINGER: Yeah, yeah.

[00:24:21.35] PETER DEWITT: Is there like one or two things that you think somebody could easily do that maybe they're not thinking they can do with their students within a classroom, to work on the behavior and that psychological safety? You mentioned psychological safety before. Is there one or-- are there one or two things that people can do that maybe they don't even consider to be a big deal that you're like, you know what, if you did this, it would [INAUDIBLE] away.

[00:24:50.08] BEN SPRINGER: Yeah. So there's kind of four things. We're educators and so we come up with these cheeky, cheesy acronyms. But it is SAFE--

[00:24:58.89] PETER DEWITT: Acronyms in education, amazing.

[00:25:01.82] BEN SPRINGER: So the first one is like positive mantras or salutations every day. So what that does is it's nice just to greet people, and that's just being kind. But kids need a lot of modeling of positive self-talk. And so that's what we say is salutations and positive self-talk is a real simple thing that we can do.

[00:25:20.19] And I'm talking from kids who are anybody from nonverbal, all the way to kids who are hyper verbal and love to talk with you. Modeling positive self-talk as adults is really, really critical with the kids that we work with. If they do ever engage in self-talk, it's usually negative. And if they ever see adults in self-talk, it's usually negative. So that's a good safe place to start.

[00:25:44.16] The second one is ask questions. So ask like-- be authentic with students and ask them authentically for their feedback based on their experience in the classroom, or-- whatever your circle of influence is, ask them, it's good pedagogy, it's good formative assessment. Just ask-- get consumer feedback. But be meaningful with it at any age, from preschool to high school.

[00:26:06.96] We're in really deep competition with screens and entertainment, and so include unexpected fun things. That's the F part of the SAFE acronym. You don't have to break the bank and do a song and dance every day, but we are in stark competition. I mean, if we're not leveraging all the technology and all the stuff we have available to us, kids are going to be seeking that stuff out because it's awesome. Let's just be honest.

[00:26:30.78] We don't have to be bored anymore. We can flip on Tiktok, Netflix anytime, anywhere. And that's what we're fractions, we got to be able to spice that up sometimes. So just whatever your version of fun is or unexpectedness, that's what I coach teams on.

[00:26:46.92] And then, finally, is just the classic of setting up real authentic expectations because expectations are different in the rules, right. So classroom rules are kind of leg speed limits and stop signs. Expectations can vary from activity to activity.

[00:27:00.45] And just be up front with the kids about it because they'll do better the more clear the expectations are. And they'll be less anxious. And so much aggression and so much trouble in schools comes from kids anxiety and not knowing what they should be doing. And so those four things I think you could do, anybody could do, for preschool to high school. And I think those are high leverage practices.

[00:27:26.74] They're like multivitamins, take them every day. If you do them every once in a while, they're not to be worth your time. But if you did those four things every single day, multiple times in a day, you definitely would see dividends and improved behavior in school.

[00:27:38.53] PETER DEWITT: No, I think that's very helpful. And even with-- somebody might look and say the positive mantra piece, and that to me is very meditation practices are definitely more positive mantras as well. So, no, I think those can be really powerful because we do need to have that positive self-talk because we can have the negative self-talk.

[00:27:58.45] One of the things that I learned about you when I was looking up is that-- so you've got Totem. So people actually have access. Can you tell me a little bit about how Totem works? And the work you're doing there with-- is it Aspen?

[00:28:13.81] BEN SPRINGER: Yeah, yeah. So the whole Happy Kids Don't Punch You in the Face book is me sharing the research and the evidence base behind the training programs that we've created. And one of which is called Aspen. And that's just how to deescalate aggressive students safely and prevent those things from happening again.

[00:28:35.28] And as you know, those of us that get into trainings and you travel, I would go to places and I would feel bad not leaving something. Because this stuff you can't just-- you can't have one day of PD and be like, oh, thanks. We've solved all of our mental health, yeah. So it's this online subscription that school districts use.

[00:28:57.59] And I think we have something like 30,000 every day online users just using this platform. And so Aspen is in there. The SAFE stuff that I just shared with you comes from happy class, which is just our general classroom management. Like, if you're a teacher, any period in your career, veteran or brand new, it's just these evidence-based classroom management strategies that should be kind of simple. They're not going to break your back on them.

[00:29:27.82] And all of these courses are designed in a PLC model. So if you're meeting in a PLC group and you're like, gosh, what do I do? I got this kid, they're constantly interrupting or they're saying sexually offensive things in class or whatever, that whole spectrum that teachers have to deal with, you can pull these resources in right there. They're embedded, you can review them, everything is downloadable. All the copyrights are waived for public schools, so it's designed to be shared in a PLC model.

[00:29:53.72] So that's kind of what the training programs are. And we love coming on campus, obviously, but we know school budgets and that's what it is. It's kind of the in between to help it be embedded, professional learning, access in a professional learning community. And you have everything there, from Aspen which is aggressive behavior, to classroom management, to other stuff as well.

[00:30:14.88] PETER DEWITT: So what did I forget before we wrap it up? What's the one question you wish I asked that I didn't ask?

[00:30:20.66] BEN SPRINGER: Oh, man. This has been really fun. I hadn't thought about it. One thing that I appreciate about your time and doing this and your work is-- I'm going to space the name of it-- but you have a book that has these people like holding hands and there's like a sunset.

[00:30:39.77] And we've been using it in our school district for a long time, for coaches. It's like our coaching-- we've have it everywhere. And I just-- I'm just-- but I wanted to throw out there that coaches regardless, the coaching models that you've helped develop and that you support schools and you direct schools onto, I have seen such a need for coaches in this area.

[00:31:08.43] So whatever you want to call them, behavior specialists, I would love to see a crossover of those coaches, that coaching model that you know so much about. But it's blended over from a general education and a special education.

[00:31:23.40] It's like almost a combination of those approaches. Because I feel like the emphasis of a building principal and the schools, the focus it seems to be overly on literacy and numeracy. And I just wish those coaches that are due so good at that work, they also could develop these skills as well.

[00:31:42.27] And I think we would see a huge return on those investment of human coaches if they dabbled in both of those areas. So that's something that we've always relied on, a coaching model in the district that I've been a part of for the longest time. And also I just want to thank you for that resource.

[00:32:02.54] PETER DEWITT: You weren't supposed to turn it back on me. You are the guest.

[00:32:05.17] BEN SPRINGER: Well, I did. I had to. There's a little opportunity because my curriculum department would be remiss if they said, hey, you got to tell him thanks because we've been using that for a long time.

[00:32:15.07] PETER DEWITT: I appreciate that. And you know when I-- I mean, when I was working with those behavior coaches in Port Huron many years ago, it did shift my thinking because so often I'm thinking about academics. And the questions that they came up with were definitely really important. And it's just such a different mindset that people went in with as opposed to a literacy coach or something like that. They looked at a behavior coach in a very different way, so.

[00:32:41.09] TANYA GHANS: Yeah. And I think if we could meld those two somehow, some way, that would be great.

[00:32:46.58] PETER DEWITT: Well, there you go. Tanya is going to have to talk to me about another book. As she's looking at a book I just wrote, she's going to be thinking of giving me work right after.

[00:32:56.93] BEN SPRINGER: There you go. There you go.

[00:32:58.28] PETER DEWITT: Thanks a lot. And Ben Springer, it's been a joy talking to you. Thank you so much for being on the Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast.

[00:33:05.67] BEN SPRINGER: Hey, likewise. It's good to meet you.

[00:33:07.36] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, same here. All right, Tanya, I know I feel like I say this all the time, but every guest that we have is just bring something different. And I'm not just saying it, like I don't want people to think that. It's so interesting to moderate a podcast because, honestly, the guests that we have come in are very different. I mean, we've had people who've had very different ideas as well.

[00:33:40.47] But just engaging in a conversation with them and hearing about their work and what they're doing and their expertise comes out is pretty amazing. And Ben was definitely somebody I enjoyed talking to. He got me to lean in a little bit more when he was talking about the four pillars.

[00:33:58.89] And he mentioned health because that's a kick of mine that I'm always paying attention to. Not just within my own home but just in general, of being a teacher and a principal and fighting that fight for better meals and those kind of things.

[00:34:14.86] And he was just really interesting to talk to and very practical at the same time. And I know that some people will probably hear the title of his book, and, yeah, there's humor in the title. But we also know it underlines a really serious issue that we're having in school. And Ben was able to find balance between both, I think, very, very well.

[00:34:37.78] I think he can offer that humorous title so we kind of let our anxiety down a little bit as we listen, at the same time he offers some really practical advice that we can use pretty immediate. So it was a good conversation.

[00:34:53.08] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, I also thought about the diet thing too, and it's very true. Like eating and sleeping, I mean, yes, maybe children have way more resiliency and energy than we do as adults, but it's going to impact you if stirring around inside of you is just a lot of stuff that does not serve as good fuel. So it's a simple yet not so simple thing, but something to look into because it could really make a change. And I think, again, Ben has made me think about that.

[00:35:21.61] The other piece that I really appreciated about him is that both of us as lifelong learners, and it's something that we say on the show and we really believe, he came on willing to say I was trying to maybe push my thinking in this one way and I was getting pushback from my community because-- or my participants because I wasn't hearing teachers saying, we have rights as well too. We have a right to feel safe in the classroom, which is what I'm hearing all the time from teachers too.

[00:35:50.47] It's like they're all fleeing from the job and they're running. And it's like, yeah, part of it is no one wants to go to a hostile work environment and a kid who is punching you in the face, if you will. Or any variation of that can make it a hostile work environment. So I thought it meant something that he realized that he had to pay attention to that in how he was thinking about talking about this issue. And I think educators probably really appreciate and respect him for that.

[00:36:19.81] PETER DEWITT: Yeah.

[00:36:20.52] TANYA GHANS: Yeah.

[00:36:21.01] PETER DEWITT: I can imagine-- I would actually love to see him run a workshop. I'd love to see him on a workshop because he was very engaging just from doing the interview. So, anyway, Tanya, another great one.

[00:36:35.58] TANYA GHANS: Another great one. I was just about to say that. So I really look forward to next time. Who will we have?

[00:36:43.38] PETER DEWITT: Exactly.

[00:36:43.95] TANYA GHANS: But, yes, make sure you come back so you can hear it. Like, subscribe. If there are any bells and whistles to hit, please do. But we really do want to hear your feedback. Questions to give, topics you want to hear more about, we're really welcome and open to all of that. But as always, Peter, it's really great learning with you. And I look forward to seeing you next time.

[00:37:06.18] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, Tanya, always good to see you too. And thank you to everybody that listens. And definitely give us your feedback on the show as well. So till next time Tanya.

[00:37:15.84] TANYA GHANS: Till next time. Thanks, everyone.

[00:37:17.31] [COOL MUSIC]